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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2013-07-31 18:03:22 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
Yea.. I remember playing in the dialup days and playing everquest.. if running right you'd cast spell at 1 sec after click if it was "lagging" errr slowing down it'd take a few secs but would still work. What people don't understand is that TiDi might "slow down" the game but that is just them artificially lagging the system to make sure all clicks get put in.. Twist it anyway you want but its still "lag" in the sense that it takes longer to do something that normally took 1 sec..


Lag results in action being execute out of order or completely dropped.

TiDi result in action being executed in order and not drop.

TiDi =/= lag



So you are saying that lag is not a delay?


Lag is an out of control delay while TiDi is a controled state of slowdown to prevent the real effect of lags where action would NOT be executed in order OR completely dropped from the stack.

If I put my simulation to slow speed instead of normal speed, I am not lagging myself out.

The whole difference come from the fact that TiDi is something the game is programmed to to in order to stay stable while lag would be a result of the code not handling stuff as supposed thus starting to have erratic behavior.



Lag by definition is not a matter of control. Lag is an increase of time (see;delay). Here, I'll use this definition straight from wikipedia- "All video games incur some lag, since once an input from the player is received, the game must compute the next frame of video and that video frame must be scanned out to a display device. But in general parlance, video game lag refers to delays that are noticeable to a player."

So please answer the question again.

So are you saying that lag is not a delay?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#282 - 2013-07-31 18:04:00 UTC
make that 15 pages
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#283 - 2013-07-31 18:06:12 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
If you want to compare context then neither one of us can be considered right or wrong.
Sure I can, largely by picking the right context and point of comparison.

Your problem is that you refuse to accept “a few minutes” as “in a timely manner” because you don't take context and relative speed into account. Meanwhile, I'm looking at it in the context of “does it happen within the server tick, as it's supposed to?”, because that's the context that matters (not the number of real-world seconds). TiDi ensures that this happens. Just because the server tick has been stretched to a few seconds — or even minutes — does not mean that the processing isn't done in a timely manner, because it still happens within the server tick, as it is supposed to.

This can be compared to “not in a timely manner”, which is what we had before TiDi. This was when a command could be dropped, forgotten, or just constantly shunted further down the line to the point where it may never have existed (and/or when it pops back up again, the world has long-since changed). Instead of happening within the server tick, it happens umpteeen ticks down the line… or not at all… That is when you have lag. That is also why TiDi does not create lag, but solve it: because TiDi very specifically ensures that execution does not happen in a different server tick and out of order with when in the world simulation the order was sent.

Quote:
The player still suffers from lag under TiDi, or are you disagreeing with that?
The player suffers from lag when there's lag. That's a different state than being under TiDi. In fact, it's a state that TiDi very often completely removes.



If it took me 10 seconds to perform a 1second action, that would be a timely manner.

20minutes is not. 5 minutes is not. 3 minutes is not.

Maybe you need (Or I need?) to revisit what "timely" means, because once something starts exceeding 1000% value of time, I do not see it as timely. Maybe you do, but I am glad to not be in the age of dialup modems any longer.


I would argue that when I have been under TiDI, modules activated and initiated their effects instantly although the cycles became longer. Such is the purpose of TiDi. If your modules weren't reacting, then it was lag rather than TiDi affecting you. Unfortunately TiDi cannot cover all lag since it can only drop to 10% of normal time at most.

From the TiDI devblog:

Expectations management time!

Time dilation does not solve everything. Some load is not tied to a time duration, so we won't be able to handle indefinitely-sized fights. We're at the point today where I think this will cover all of what we see on a regular basis with grace. I do think, however, we'll have to put in a hard limit on how far we're willing to dilate; there's no sense having a system running at .1% time, since no one will be able to do much of anything and it'll just never go anywhere. I don't know where that threshold will be - it'll be something we have to play with after deployment most likely. If fights are regularly going past whatever that threshold is though, we're back to where we are today with the server becoming unresponsive and nasty and stuff. We shall see.



"If fights are regularly going past whatever that threshold is though, we're back to where we are today with the server becoming unresponsive and nasty and stuff."

So tell me, what's this "threshold"?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#284 - 2013-07-31 18:09:18 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

So tell me, what's this "threshold"?


10% You should already know that...
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#285 - 2013-07-31 18:13:02 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

So tell me, what's this "threshold"?


10% You should already know that...



We are regularly going past that. Just about every sov battle exceeds that because the spike usually lasts the entire duration.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#286 - 2013-07-31 18:13:02 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That "tick" is the lag we are talking about here.
No. That tick is the normal timeframe within which a command gets processed. As long as the command gets processed within that timeframe, you have no lag. The “lag” (which isn't actually lag) you're talking about is simply the stretching of the length of that tick. Actual lag, on the other hand, is when commands fail to be processed within that timeframe (or some simulation-dependently acceptable number of frames later).




As long as the time for me to perform the same actions as you in regards to server processing and only tidi being a factor... that would be lag. The simple fact that I can operate and interact with your toon in the same game having different time frames is what that delay impacts.

If you have 20minutes of "delay" or rather... 20 minutes per server tick, and I have 1 second per server tick, that will always be a lag between the 2 pilots simply because we are in the same game and playing under different conditions. The definition of lag is relevant at this point.


Except since you are in the same system, you are both affected by TiDi and your ticks are both set at 20 minutes per. You are not interacting with the other toon at a different rate. If it was indeed lag like you wrongfully try to make us accept, one side might get thier action executed faster and THAT woudl create a problem. TiDi is put in place exactly to prevent that.
Maximillian German
Task Force Coalition
#287 - 2013-07-31 18:14:50 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

So tell me, what's this "threshold"?


10% You should already know that...



We are regularly going past that. Just about every sov battle exceeds that because the spike usually lasts the entire duration.


So, the TiDi number shows less than 10% when you mouse over it. That is what you are saying, correct?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#288 - 2013-07-31 18:16:27 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lag by definition is not a matter of control. Lag is an increase of time (see;delay).
No. Lag is one specific increase of time, namely the increase of time between when a command should have been processed and when it actually is processed.

TiDi is the exact opposite: it ensures that the command is processed exactly when it should have been processed. Just because TiDi adds processing delays does not mean that TiDi is lag.

Lag is a delay; delays are not lag.

Quote:
Here, I'll use this definition straight from wikipedia- "All video games incur some lag, since once an input from the player is received, the game must compute the next frame of video and that video frame must be scanned out to a display device. But in general parlance, video game lag refers to delays that are noticeable to a player."

So please answer the question again.

So are you saying that lag is not a delay?
Sure. But that doesn't make delays lag, nor does it turn TiDi into any kind of lag.

Quote:
If you have 20minutes of "delay" or rather... 20 minutes per server tick, and I have 1 second per server tick, that will always be a lag between the 2 pilots simply because we are in the same game and playing under different conditions.
…but as luck would have it, both pilots will have the same server tick, so that kind of lag won't happen either.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#289 - 2013-07-31 18:17:30 UTC
If you actually hadn't figured out that the system can extend ticks past 10 seconds without explicitly telling you, well whatever works for you then.

A 10s align taking 5 minutes is not 10x.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#290 - 2013-07-31 18:18:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That "tick" is the lag we are talking about here.
No. That tick is the normal timeframe within which a command gets processed. As long as the command gets processed within that timeframe, you have no lag. The “lag” (which isn't actually lag) you're talking about is simply the stretching of the length of that tick. Actual lag, on the other hand, is when commands fail to be processed within that timeframe (or some simulation-dependently acceptable number of frames later).




As long as the time for me to perform the same actions as you in regards to server processing and only tidi being a factor... that would be lag. The simple fact that I can operate and interact with your toon in the same game having different time frames is what that delay impacts.

If you have 20minutes of "delay" or rather... 20 minutes per server tick, and I have 1 second per server tick, that will always be a lag between the 2 pilots simply because we are in the same game and playing under different conditions. The definition of lag is relevant at this point.


Except since you are in the same system, you are both affected by TiDi and your ticks are both set at 20 minutes per. You are not interacting with the other toon at a different rate. If it was indeed lag like you wrongfully try to make us accept, one side might get thier action executed faster and THAT woudl create a problem. TiDi is put in place exactly to prevent that.



But I easily can be. I can be what would take 20 minutes to travel appear in the time it took you to accomplish 1 tick. Simply from being in a different system.

In case of the trapped titans from post bigman4,000delayfest fight, that means while it would take that ship 1 tick to register from his clicking a hardener, or a repper, I have that much time to drop a cyno, jump in a ship, bridge other ships, cyno other ships, log an alt in, or 3, communicate with my corp/alliance, organize a picnic, take a shower, and show up for the kill.

All in 1 "tick" that the titan pilot could not do anything else but turn on a module. Not to mention even trying to align, or warp.

If I'm not in the same system, and I am not suffering from the same tidi penalties (balancing? hah) I have an absolute edge.

If I'm the victim, that's terrible, if I'm on my way to the kill, I'm thanking my lucky stars.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#291 - 2013-07-31 18:18:27 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Tron 3K wrote:
Yea.. I remember playing in the dialup days and playing everquest.. if running right you'd cast spell at 1 sec after click if it was "lagging" errr slowing down it'd take a few secs but would still work. What people don't understand is that TiDi might "slow down" the game but that is just them artificially lagging the system to make sure all clicks get put in.. Twist it anyway you want but its still "lag" in the sense that it takes longer to do something that normally took 1 sec..


Lag results in action being execute out of order or completely dropped.

TiDi result in action being executed in order and not drop.

TiDi =/= lag



So you are saying that lag is not a delay?


Lag is an out of control delay while TiDi is a controled state of slowdown to prevent the real effect of lags where action would NOT be executed in order OR completely dropped from the stack.

If I put my simulation to slow speed instead of normal speed, I am not lagging myself out.

The whole difference come from the fact that TiDi is something the game is programmed to to in order to stay stable while lag would be a result of the code not handling stuff as supposed thus starting to have erratic behavior.



Lag by definition is not a matter of control. Lag is an increase of time (see;delay). Here, I'll use this definition straight from wikipedia- "All video games incur some lag, since once an input from the player is received, the game must compute the next frame of video and that video frame must be scanned out to a display device. But in general parlance, video game lag refers to delays that are noticeable to a player."

So please answer the question again.

So are you saying that lag is not a delay?


Lag is a form of delay but not in the same way as TiDi. Lag is happening when things are going to ****. The delays in the action is not controled and not intended. What TiDi does i put the game on slow settings to amke sure everybody will ahve thier action done when they should. And no "When they should" does not mean "Just as I click the button" but "Exactly at the next tick after I pressed the button". If you press the button during the first second of a tick, then your action will start at the next one. If the ticks currently happen to be 20 minutes, your action will be resolved when that time has passed and at the same time as everybody who initiated action during that tick. This might look like some people only wait 15 minutes to have thier action processed but in the end, they are still pushed to the next tick. All player are given a larger margin of error to make tier action happen in the next tick without skipping one because they had to make a decision before sending a request for an action to be executed.
Tron 3K
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#292 - 2013-07-31 18:21:08 UTC
Artificial Lag
Starlite Kishunuba
Perkone
Caldari State
#293 - 2013-07-31 18:22:16 UTC
Tron 3K wrote:
Artificial Lag


wrong, but thanks for playing ^^
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#294 - 2013-07-31 18:24:22 UTC
also, ITT: someone attempting to trying to being able to argue with Tippia.



Lol

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#295 - 2013-07-31 18:24:35 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That "tick" is the lag we are talking about here.
No. That tick is the normal timeframe within which a command gets processed. As long as the command gets processed within that timeframe, you have no lag. The “lag” (which isn't actually lag) you're talking about is simply the stretching of the length of that tick. Actual lag, on the other hand, is when commands fail to be processed within that timeframe (or some simulation-dependently acceptable number of frames later).




As long as the time for me to perform the same actions as you in regards to server processing and only tidi being a factor... that would be lag. The simple fact that I can operate and interact with your toon in the same game having different time frames is what that delay impacts.

If you have 20minutes of "delay" or rather... 20 minutes per server tick, and I have 1 second per server tick, that will always be a lag between the 2 pilots simply because we are in the same game and playing under different conditions. The definition of lag is relevant at this point.


Except since you are in the same system, you are both affected by TiDi and your ticks are both set at 20 minutes per. You are not interacting with the other toon at a different rate. If it was indeed lag like you wrongfully try to make us accept, one side might get thier action executed faster and THAT woudl create a problem. TiDi is put in place exactly to prevent that.



But I easily can be. I can be what would take 20 minutes to travel appear in the time it took you to accomplish 1 tick. Simply from being in a different system.

In case of the trapped titans from post bigman4,000delayfest fight, that means while it would take that ship 1 tick to register from his clicking a hardener, or a repper, I have that much time to drop a cyno, jump in a ship, bridge other ships, cyno other ships, log an alt in, or 3, communicate with my corp/alliance, organize a picnic, take a shower, and show up for the kill.

All in 1 "tick" that the titan pilot could not do anything else but turn on a module. Not to mention even trying to align, or warp.

If I'm not in the same system, and I am not suffering from the same tidi penalties (balancing? hah) I have an absolute edge.

If I'm the victim, that's terrible, if I'm on my way to the kill, I'm thanking my lucky stars.


Thats because the solar system are not on the same node. The system is not lagging, it's just playing on slow on node X while node Y still handle stuff on regular speed. You can perform amny action in the neiboring system but none affact the ship in the other system. You might be able to jabber ping for reinforcement, form up a fleet, orbit the titan and bridge but your you are not interacting with the tackeled ship in the TiDi'd system. As soon as you try to interact with the system under TiDi, your action will go at that system speed thus giving no advantage while interacting with the other ship. As soon as you try to bridge, you will face the slow speed ticks insetad of the fast one in the server you came from. Then you will target at the speed of the slow server and start shooting at the speed of the slow server.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#296 - 2013-07-31 18:24:39 UTC
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Maximillian German wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

So tell me, what's this "threshold"?


10% You should already know that...



We are regularly going past that. Just about every sov battle exceeds that because the spike usually lasts the entire duration.


So, the TiDi number shows less than 10% when you mouse over it. That is what you are saying, correct?



No, I am saying that tidi is meant to accomodate the "spike" of workload from the server to be able to compensate based on what the devblog said. Since the entire fight creates enough workload to justify the server keeping a 10% tidi for the duration, it's obviously not enough.

Even using the most robust node ccp has could not accomodate the load. Per the devblog-

"When the attacking fleet warps in, the server gets extremely overloaded - warp-in and other setup tasks like drone deployment are quite expensive - so the game clock gets dilated extremely, down to 5% of real time or something. As those tasks complete, the server gets ahead enough to safely creep the dilation factor up to around 30% of normal time, and the fight is properly joined. At this point, we're sitting with 1600 actively fighting, with their requests being acknowledged quickly and fairly, but everything just taking about 3x as long as usual. The players in the fleet can tell that's happening because many of the HUD elements are animating slowly and the explosions in space are slow-mo too. As more ships die/chicken out, the load of the fight eases up and at around 1200 engaged I'll guesstimate we're back up to around 60% of normal time. Maybe at this point one of the FCs realizes he's boned and calls the retreat. Jumping out is expensive as well, so the clock dilates back down far, to let's say 10%, while the fleet buggers off"

As of now, even with the best CCP can do to ensure stability (also from other fights not just 4,000 one but the others that hit system cap!) that tidi is held there for the entire duration!

That is not good. When you have a game that advertises on these big fights, it's to be expected to have some sort of compensation, but not the entire duration.

In short, CCP cannot keep up.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#297 - 2013-07-31 18:25:19 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
But I easily can be. I can be what would take 20 minutes to travel appear in the time it took you to accomplish 1 tick. Simply from being in a different system.
…but that's not lag. That's just asynchronous gameplay.

Quote:
If I'm not in the same system, and I am not suffering from the same tidi penalties (balancing? hah) I have an absolute edge.
An edge in what? You can't affect him and he can't effect you except in ways that run under the same tick for both of you.

Quote:
If I'm the victim, that's terrible, if I'm on my way to the kill, I'm thanking my lucky stars.
If you're the victim, it's great because you have tons of time to call in reinforcements before you can do anything; if you're on the way to the kill, that's terrible because once you get there, his help will arrive while you're still waiting in warp.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#298 - 2013-07-31 18:27:02 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:




Thats because the solar system are not on the same node. The system is not lagging, it's just playing on slow on node X while node Y still handle stuff on regular speed. You can perform amny action in the neiboring system but none affact the ship in the other system. You might be able to jabber ping for reinforcement, form up a fleet, orbit the titan and bridge but your you are not interacting with the tackeled ship in the TiDi'd system. As soon as you try to interact with the system under TiDi, your action will go at that system speed thus giving no advantage while interacting with the other ship. As soon as you try to bridge, you will face the slow speed ticks insetad of the fast one in the server you came from. Then you will target at the speed of the slow server and start shooting at the speed of the slow server.



I know the why. The fact still remains true however.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2013-07-31 18:34:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
But I easily can be. I can be what would take 20 minutes to travel appear in the time it took you to accomplish 1 tick. Simply from being in a different system.
…but that's not lag. That's just asynchronous gameplay.

Quote:
If I'm not in the same system, and I am not suffering from the same tidi penalties (balancing? hah) I have an absolute edge.
An edge in what? You can't affect him and he can't effect you except in ways that run under the same tick for both of you.

Quote:
If I'm the victim, that's terrible, if I'm on my way to the kill, I'm thanking my lucky stars.
If you're the victim, it's great because you have tons of time to call in reinforcements before you can do anything; if you're on the way to the kill, that's terrible because once you get there, his help will arrive while you're still waiting in warp.



Not when you understand the limitations set because of game mechanics and the tidi. That tian can only get so far based on the amount of time it takes to do actions in a ship that size under 100% time circumstances, let alone 10%. Faster ships can still get into that system and get that ship further tackled or aggressed in the amount of time it takes that titan to align.

For instance, if it takes 20minutes for 1 tick in that tidi environment and a titan took say.... 10 ticks to align....

That titan is ******.

If I can travel 10 jumps in the amount of time it takes 1 tick for that titan to even START aligning out, and my tacklers take 3 ticks to land in system, warp and target and then tackle...

I was able to travel 10 jumps, enter system (now affected by tidi) and take less time to get there and tackle than it took that titan to finish aligning out.

From a power projection point of view, that's insane.

Now you're looking at time responses from people logging in, batphoning an op, reshipping, and moving into position from the other side of the galaxy while that slowass titan is stuggling to align out.

That's where multiple separate nodes and "delay" are insane.

TiDi should be handling spikes, not entire encounters.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#300 - 2013-07-31 18:34:37 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:




Thats because the solar system are not on the same node. The system is not lagging, it's just playing on slow on node X while node Y still handle stuff on regular speed. You can perform amny action in the neiboring system but none affact the ship in the other system. You might be able to jabber ping for reinforcement, form up a fleet, orbit the titan and bridge but your you are not interacting with the tackeled ship in the TiDi'd system. As soon as you try to interact with the system under TiDi, your action will go at that system speed thus giving no advantage while interacting with the other ship. As soon as you try to bridge, you will face the slow speed ticks insetad of the fast one in the server you came from. Then you will target at the speed of the slow server and start shooting at the speed of the slow server.



I know the why. The fact still remains true however.


Yes it's true taht as long as you are not in the same system, you are not interacting with the ship in the TiDi'd system. That is indeed a fact. You are also not interacting with a ship in another non'TiDi'd system.