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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers - round two

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#61 - 2013-07-29 13:17:01 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Why is a tracking bonud compelling on a thorax but not a diemos?


Because Thorax doesn't also have a falloff bonus and a second damage bonus. The combination would just be way too much on the Deimos.

@ccp_rise

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#62 - 2013-07-29 13:18:47 UTC
I see a muninn with a lockrange almost matching tremorrange \o/

I really LOVE the decision to boost their capacitors, it's one crucial trait of the T1/Navy cruisers they are lacking. +1 for perma-mwd-hacs!

It actually looks a lot like Cerberus might become a thing (with RLML), but that's just my impression.

One of the big winners of that rebalance might be (imo) the vaga, with adjusted cap.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-07-29 13:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Ishtar looks interesting and all around better. But as mentioned it benefits at best from only 3 bonuses at any one time. And if your using medium drones then only two...but I guess if you want it to specialize in this way that's ok I suppose, will have to see how it plays out.

The Diemost is a bit weak. Really looks to be the one boat that needed a bit of help and frankly the targeting range bonus is not really that much of a benefit, except to perhaps counter damps a bit and rail fits. But if you want to rail gun it then fly an eagle. Biggest issue here is as a brawler reducing the tank makes this boat too squishy. The speed boost is nice but you all hit it way too hard in the ehp.

1. Restore the ehp
3. Replace the MWD cap bonus with a bonus to AB speed. This would really make the diemos unique and make it a dual prop monster that benefits as it burns into the brawl from the role bonus and can then power with enough speed in close with the AB and blasters hammering. (though it may struggle to track but that can be managed with some buddy team TP's and webs. )
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#64 - 2013-07-29 13:20:04 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Why does the sacrilege only get a 5%/level missile velocity bonus when all other range-bonused missile hulls get 10%?


To be honest I'm surprised this got through without any of us catching it. Switched it to 10% Thanks.

@ccp_rise

W0lf Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-07-29 13:24:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
Why does the sacrilege only get a 5%/level missile velocity bonus when all other range-bonused missile hulls get 10%?


To be honest I'm surprised this got through without any of us catching it. Switched it to 10% Thanks.


Why do you think a range bonus on the sacri would be a good idea (keep in mind that hmls are almost completely useless)?
Angry Mustache
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2013-07-29 13:24:11 UTC
Akimo Heth wrote:
Capqu wrote:


preach it

the cerb would be too strong if it didnt have SOME kind of weakness, and kinetic damage is a small price to pay for 350 perfectly applied dps @ 105k while cruisin' at 2kms


Learn how explosion velocity works and how it is really low on HM's preventing "perfectly applied dps" @ 105k on a non-stationary target.


I believe capqu is talking about the RLML version of the Cerberus, which can indeed hit out to about 90 with light missiles for 300 DPS. given the extreme precision of light missiles, 380 @ 71 doesn't seem too unreasonable either with furies.

An official Member of the Goonswarm Federation Complaints Department.

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-07-29 13:26:28 UTC

Move the diemost tank out of structure and shield and put it in the armor. It makes it possible to brawl the ship and not get alpha off the field, also if people raill/shield fit it. Well some inane ball of fire reference.

Yaay!!!!

SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-07-29 13:29:53 UTC
Alright, I did some EFTWarrioring on the Vagabond.

Here are the possible fits :

Dual LSE ie the Regular Vagabond. Needs a PWG implant and there is no way it can fit 425mms, of course.

XLASB, MWD + AB + WD with Dual 180mms. Still needs a 1% CPU implant even at all V with meta 4 gear.

LASB, ShieldBoostAmplifier, Disruptor MWD with 220mms. It fits confortably, but it's worse than every other Vagabond fits.

Pith *-Type Large Shield booster, medium capbooster, MWD, Disrupt with 220mms and no neutra.

The Dual LSE one is outclassed by every kiting platform right now. Outclassed by the Talos, by the new Cerberus and by the Cynabal of course.

The XLASB thingy is a kiting thing. It works because of the ASB, not because of the hull. It's sort of workable but 180mm guns really are pathetic if you want to kite.

LASB version is ********.

Pith *-type version should work but yeah, buy a Cynabal instead.

The Vagabond needs some help, because right now it's really lackluster compared to everything else.

Either go -1 highslot + 1 medslot and make it a true shield HAC, or give it a good PWG boost so that a XLASB + 220mm fit is possible. Short of that, there is no job a Vagabond does a Cynabal doesn't do better.
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
Liandri Covenant
#69 - 2013-07-29 13:29:57 UTC
Capqu wrote:


preach it

the cerb would be too strong if it didnt have SOME kind of weakness, and kinetic damage is a small price to pay for 350 perfectly applied dps @ 105k while cruisin' at 2kms


Delayed paper DPS
W0lf Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-07-29 13:30:12 UTC
Also in case anyone cares, try flying a kiting ship when something like that is going to exist

http://i.imgur.com/omX9rre.png (no cap/sensor strenght changes yet; no it will have even better cap).

Thats 98k ehp after the booster is dry (4.25*9*2117 + 17754 = 98729.25).
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#71 - 2013-07-29 13:33:10 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
Why does the sacrilege only get a 5%/level missile velocity bonus when all other range-bonused missile hulls get 10%?


To be honest I'm surprised this got through without any of us catching it. Switched it to 10% Thanks.


Why do you think a range bonus on the sacri would be a good idea (keep in mind that hmls are almost completely useless)?


Maybe because missile velocity bonuses are even more beneficial to HAM fits than to HML fits?

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#72 - 2013-07-29 13:33:14 UTC
Rise, pls.
4 mid muninn.

Pls.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-07-29 13:35:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Why is a tracking bonud compelling on a thorax but not a diemos?


Because Thorax doesn't also have a falloff bonus and a second damage bonus. The combination would just be way too much on the Deimos.


No it wouldn't. Seriously they are properly **** at the moment. Rails are getting their tracking nerfed a lot blasters on the diemos...might as well use a proteus or a brutix navy. Moving the Deimos into a rail ship would be a nice niche for it and the tracking bonus would be useful there.

I will bare my arse on an Icelandic winter if giving it a 7.5%/lvl tracking bonus makes them the FOTM.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#74 - 2013-07-29 13:35:18 UTC
Allandri wrote:
Capqu wrote:


preach it

the cerb would be too strong if it didnt have SOME kind of weakness, and kinetic damage is a small price to pay for 350 perfectly applied dps @ 105k while cruisin' at 2kms


Delayed paper DPS


6-10 seconds delayed 98.5% applied though. No one ever talked about fitting HAMS or HMLs to a cerb. This is 2013!
M1k3y Koontz
THE AESIR.
Hostile Probes
#75 - 2013-07-29 13:36:14 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Also in case anyone cares, try flying a kiting ship when something like that is going to exist

http://i.imgur.com/omX9rre.png (no cap/sensor strenght changes yet; no it will have even better cap).

Thats 98k ehp after the booster is dry (4.25*9*2117 + 17754 = 98729.25).


Couple of things: It requires THREE fitting implants, your 98k ehp assumes that it won't get alpha'd of the field with that **** poor 17k EHP, and I could fit up a Cynabal that would do the job better for probably the same cost or less.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

M1k3y Koontz
THE AESIR.
Hostile Probes
#76 - 2013-07-29 13:36:40 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Alright, I did some EFTWarrioring on the Vagabond.

Here are the possible fits :

Dual LSE ie the Regular Vagabond. Needs a PWG implant and there is no way it can fit 425mms, of course.

XLASB, MWD + AB + WD with Dual 180mms. Still needs a 1% CPU implant even at all V with meta 4 gear.

LASB, ShieldBoostAmplifier, Disruptor MWD with 220mms. It fits confortably, but it's worse than every other Vagabond fits.

Pith *-Type Large Shield booster, medium capbooster, MWD, Disrupt with 220mms and no neutra.

The Dual LSE one is outclassed by every kiting platform right now. Outclassed by the Talos, by the new Cerberus and by the Cynabal of course.

The XLASB thingy is a kiting thing. It works because of the ASB, not because of the hull. It's sort of workable but 180mm guns really are pathetic if you want to kite.

LASB version is ********.

Pith *-type version should work but yeah, buy a Cynabal instead.

The Vagabond needs some help, because right now it's really lackluster compared to everything else.

Either go -1 highslot + 1 medslot and make it a true shield HAC, or give it a good PWG boost so that a XLASB + 220mm fit is possible. Short of that, there is no job a Vagabond does a Cynabal doesn't do better.


This is what needs to happen ^

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Mr Floydy
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2013-07-29 13:38:12 UTC
Looks a lot better. Liking the stronger caps, more fitting and the more useful bonuses particularly on the Ishtar/Sacrilege.

I'm slightly torn on the missile speed bonus for the Sac though, part of me would like something for damage application instead of range. But I'm happy with either!

Any chance of an extra 1-2% cpu + grid on the Zealot to make it less of a squeeze even with perfect skills?
Grarr Dexx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2013-07-29 13:39:00 UTC
I think by adding a strong missile velocity bonus to the sacrilege you'll kind of cancel out the fact that it can now also fit heavy missiles. Other than that, these changes are amazing, and I'll be rolling my Ishtars out a hell of a lot more, and the Vagabonds too.

Is this 7.5% optimal and tracking bonus a prelude to what will happen to the Dominix? I don't see this 10% bonus (utterly brutal) surviving much longer past the Alliance Tournament.
W0lf Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-07-29 13:39:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Maybe because missile velocity bonuses are even more beneficial to HAM fits than to HML fits?


Your not going to kite with hams in a sac, and without webs on your primary the dps is terrible.


M1k3y Koontz wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Also in case anyone cares, try flying a kiting ship when something like that is going to exist

http://i.imgur.com/omX9rre.png (no cap/sensor strenght changes yet; no it will have even better cap).

Thats 98k ehp after the booster is dry (4.25*9*2117 + 17754 = 98729.25).


Couple of things: It requires THREE fitting implants, your 98k ehp assumes that it won't get alpha'd of the field with that **** poor 17k EHP, and I could fit up a Cynabal that would do the job better for probably the same cost or less.


Yes, 17k ehp (more then a omen or a stabber) is totally going to get alphaed, if you dont like the implants, drop a low or a rigslot.

And no a cynabal can never match that, dont talk out of your ass.
Deirdre Anethoel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-07-29 13:39:18 UTC
- Rapid light missile cerberus might be too much on small scale engagements. Damage applied perfectly to frigates, huge range and good speed may be too much.
- Sacrilege still can't use RLM, could be an interesting option. The missile velocity bonus makes it way too similar to other, existing ships to my taste too. More damage or a explosion radius or speed bonus could have been good to keep it's specificities.
- The eagle is still bad because it doesn't have a role. Two optimal bonuses is awful for a brawling ship, and the resist bonus is bad for a sniping ship. It could be interesting to sneak a falloff bonus somewhere in here to make it viable with blasters too, offering the opportunity to play it as a brawler. Or a tracking bonus strong enough to make medium railguns viable at medium range to make sure it can be used as a tanky fleet ship? Because I don't really have any hope for it as a sniper, with tier3 BCs around.
- Vagabond is going to break the very small scale engagement balance, and especially solo. It was already used here sometimes, and is going to be the best ship by far. Imagine a cynabal with a bonus to ancillary shield boosters. Yes, it won't impact on it's larger
- The munnin suffers from the same problem as the eagle, but here, the conflict lies between the bonuses (sniping oriented) and the slot layout (no, armor snipers aren't viable, and yes, 3 mid slots is low). It also suffers from the comparison with tier3 BCs.