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speed/sig tanking tool

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Rangh Ovaert
#1 - 2013-07-28 10:50:03 UTC
Hi All

I wonder if there is a tool to be able to assess speed tanking and sig tanking efficiency in terms of probability to be hit by various weapon systems?

A simple example:
Using frigate with a certain signature radius (x) while orbiting a target in distance (y) with velocity (z)
Scenario A)
Afterburner. lower speed, lower sig radius
Scenario B)
MWD. much higher speed, much higher sig radius

What would be an more ore less optimal orbit distance, etc.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2 - 2013-07-28 11:16:46 UTC
Rangh Ovaert wrote:
Hi All

I wonder if there is a tool to be able to assess speed tanking and sig tanking efficiency in terms of probability to be hit by various weapon systems?

A simple example:
Using frigate with a certain signature radius (x) while orbiting a target in distance (y) with velocity (z)
Scenario A)
Afterburner. lower speed, lower sig radius
Scenario B)
MWD. much higher speed, much higher sig radius

What would be an more ore less optimal orbit distance, etc.




EFT and Pyfa dps graphs

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Rangh Ovaert
#3 - 2013-07-28 11:26:07 UTC
thanks a lot.
Whitehound
#4 - 2013-07-28 11:29:44 UTC
Rangh Ovaert wrote:
Hi All

I wonder if there is a tool to be able to assess speed tanking and sig tanking efficiency in terms of probability to be hit by various weapon systems?

A simple example:
Using frigate with a certain signature radius (x) while orbiting a target in distance (y) with velocity (z)
Scenario A)
Afterburner. lower speed, lower sig radius
Scenario B)
MWD. much higher speed, much higher sig radius

What would be an more ore less optimal orbit distance, etc.

The signature of a ship influences the damage of turrets and missiles in the same way as speed does. This means when you can lower the signature by 10% or increase your ship's speed by 10% has this the same effect on the damage you take. Ideally do you want to use both signature and speed tanking to avoid stacking penalties and so to get the highest gain.

The orbit distance is only relevant for turrets and does not effect missile damage. You want to be as close as possible against turrets and want to get under their tracking. The one place you do not want to be is at your target's optimal range.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Rangh Ovaert
#5 - 2013-07-28 11:47:46 UTC
The other day I was attacked by a Nemesis with torps and target painter me flying a shuttle. the Nemesis had a hard time to do some significant damage due to explosion radius.

About turrets:
I have seen awfully fast speed tank setups with mwd and implants. I assume it should be possible even flying within optimal range of turrets to be faster than their tracking speed?

Also about missiles apart from the fact that they always hit, signature and speed should matter in terms of damage they can inflict. I mean usual missiles having an explosion radius of 150m..

So flying an interceptor with bonus on sig radius reduction while using an mwd + actual speed, I should become theoretically untouchable?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-07-28 12:08:30 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Rangh Ovaert wrote:
Hi All

I wonder if there is a tool to be able to assess speed tanking and sig tanking efficiency in terms of probability to be hit by various weapon systems?

A simple example:
Using frigate with a certain signature radius (x) while orbiting a target in distance (y) with velocity (z)
Scenario A)
Afterburner. lower speed, lower sig radius
Scenario B)
MWD. much higher speed, much higher sig radius

What would be an more ore less optimal orbit distance, etc.

The signature of a ship influences the damage of turrets and missiles in the same way as speed does. This means when you can lower the signature by 10% or increase your ship's speed by 10% has this the same effect on the damage you take. Ideally do you want to use both signature and speed tanking to avoid stacking penalties and so to get the highest gain.

The orbit distance is only relevant for turrets and does not effect missile damage. You want to be as close as possible against turrets and want to get under their tracking. The one place you do not want to be is at your target's optimal range.


Speed has nothing to do with how much damage you take from turrets, you can fly at 11km/s but if you're flying in a straight line it won't do anything for you.

Angular velocity is the stat you have to be concerned with and you can increase it in two ways:

A: fly closer
B: fly as close to a 90 degree angle as possible

Both of these can be augmented by flying faster but flying faster on it's own won't do much.

As for very fast MWD fits, they still have to take into account their tracking speed, it's pointless to orbit and have a angular velocity of 1rad/s if your turrets cant track that fast, for missile ships its not an issue though.

An inty isn't invincible, but if you're facing something larger than yourself and you stay out of web range, you can survive a pretty long time, long enough for backup to arrive or you whittle it down with whatever weapons you might have.

Art of Explosions
Whitehound
#7 - 2013-07-28 12:19:45 UTC
Rangh Ovaert wrote:
The other day I was attacked by a Nemesis with torps and target painter me flying a shuttle. the Nemesis had a hard time to do some significant damage due to explosion radius.

About turrets:
I have seen awfully fast speed tank setups with mwd and implants. I assume it should be possible even flying within optimal range of turrets to be faster than their tracking speed?

Also about missiles apart from the fact that they always hit, signature and speed should matter in terms of damage they can inflict. I mean usual missiles having an explosion radius of 150m..

So flying an interceptor with bonus on sig radius reduction while using an mwd + actual speed, I should become theoretically untouchable?

Take a look at the formulas for turrets and missiles. Speed and signature are equal factors and an increase in speed is equivalent to a decrease in signature.

Turrets deal their highest damage usually where they have their optimal. It forms a peak between the damage loss of tracking issues and the falloff. In cases where the tracking gets really bad can the peak lie beyond the optimal (within the falloff). Only when one flies in a straight line are there no tracking issues and one does maximum damage over the full optimal range.

A T2 afterburner increases the speed by about 2.5x and is therefore equivalent to a 60% reduction in signature. An MWD with 625% speed bonus and 500% signature bloom only improves it by 1.25x and would be worse than an AB, but because Interceptors get a 75% reduction of the signature bloom (500% become 125%) is the resulting factor here 5x - twice as good as an AB. (This is with max skills.)

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound
#8 - 2013-07-28 12:21:32 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Speed has nothing to do with how much damage you take from turrets, you can fly at 11km/s but if you're flying in a straight line it won't do anything for you. ...

FYI: We are discussing speed tanking here. Either you know what this is or you are trolling.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-07-28 12:31:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Whitehound wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Speed has nothing to do with how much damage you take from turrets, you can fly at 11km/s but if you're flying in a straight line it won't do anything for you. ...

FYI: We are discussing speed tanking here. Either you know what this is or you are trolling.


read whole post.

And your comment about 2.5x velocity = 60% reduction in signature, I would love to see the math behind this.

Since angular velocity is checked against tracking speed and signature resolution is checked against signature radius and then the two factors are multiplied to give "true" tracking speed.

If we're talking about missiles, i simulated a dramiel going around 800m/s being hit by a tengu for 145 DPS, once i increased it's speed by 2.5x to 2000 the DPS went down to 65

Then I made a merlin that went the same speed (2000) but had 55 sig radius (dramiel was 34, around 60% less) and the tengu did 91 DPS

so at least for missiles your comment is completely false, I doubt it would be any more correct for turrets.

Art of Explosions
Whitehound
#10 - 2013-07-28 12:51:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Speed has nothing to do with how much damage you take from turrets, you can fly at 11km/s but if you're flying in a straight line it won't do anything for you. ...

FYI: We are discussing speed tanking here. Either you know what this is or you are trolling.


read whole post.

And your comment about 2.5x velocity = 60% reduction in signature, I would love to see the math behind this.

Since angular velocity is checked against tracking speed and signature resolution is checked against signature radius and then the two factors are multiplied to give "true" tracking speed.

If we're talking about missiles, i simulated a dramiel going around 800m/s being hit by a tengu for 145 DPS, once i increased it's speed by 2.5x to 2000 the DPS went down to 65

Then I made a merlin that went the same speed (2000) but had 55 sig radius (dramiel was 34, around 60% less) and the tengu did 91 DPS

so at least for missiles your comment is completely false, I doubt it would be any more correct for turrets.

Your mistake is that you associate a speed increase directly with the resulting damage, which is wrong. The damage does not behave linear.

A 10% speed increase can result in only a 2% damage reduction. If you however were to reduce the signature of the same ship by 10% instead of increasing its speed will you see the same 2% damage reduction.

Try using the same ship and increase its signature for one test (i.e. EM shield rig) and lower its speed in another (i.e. EM armor rig). Then compare the resulting damage.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-07-28 13:49:02 UTC
Eft says you are wrong, malediction with a lvl4 rangnarok pilot as booster (i.e 30% sig reduction) compared to a hg snaked/zors (29.7% speed increase) malediction, without an ab the snaked one takes 5% more damage then the sig one, with ab on the snaked one one takes nearly 30% more damage compared to the sig one, so i have to conclude you are wrong.
Whitehound
#12 - 2013-07-28 14:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Eft says you are wrong, malediction with a lvl4 rangnarok pilot as booster (i.e 30% sig reduction) compared to a hg snaked/zors (29.7% speed increase) malediction, without an ab the snaked one takes 5% more damage then the sig one, with ab on the snaked one one takes nearly 30% more damage compared to the sig one, so i have to conclude you are wrong.

You are doing it wrong, too.

Take a look at the formula for missile damage. There it says Signature / Speed. It is a simple ratio between the two. If it was not like this then the rigs were out of balance. Please remember that the damage itself does not behave linear to the change. You will find the reverse ratio in the turret hit'n'miss chance where it is expressed as Transversal / Signature.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-07-28 14:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
I was doing this vs turrets, not missiles, but its pretty much the same vs missiles, the change is not identical.

Edit: Im not saying that a 30% speed increase is a 30% damage reduction, im saying a 30% speed increase is not the same as a 30% sig reduction in terms of damage reduction as you claimed they were.
Whitehound
#14 - 2013-07-28 14:44:18 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
I was doing this vs turrets, not missiles, but its pretty much the same vs missiles, the change is not identical.

You will be including further factors that offset the ratio and while you keep ignoring the non-linearity. The only observation you will be able to make then is that a change can have almost any result as outcome, which is no help.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-07-28 14:52:14 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

The signature of a ship influences the damage of turrets and missiles in the same way as speed does. This means when you can lower the signature by 10% or increase your ship's speed by 10% has this the same effect on the damage you take. Ideally do you want to use both signature and speed tanking to avoid stacking penalties and so to get the highest gain.




Whitehound wrote:

A 10% speed increase can result in only a 2% damage reduction. If you however were to reduce the signature of the same ship by 10% instead of increasing its speed will you see the same 2% damage reduction.


Im replying to both of these statements, which both are simply not true.
Whitehound
#16 - 2013-07-28 15:14:31 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Im replying to both of these statements, which both are simply not true.

Stop looking at EFT but look at the formulas. When you have a ratio like a / b and you modify it by another factor m then the following is true:

(a * m) / b = a / (b / m)

This is all that I am saying.

Think of my statement as an approximation if it helps you, but one cannot express non-linearity with words. This is what we have mathematics for. If it was this simple then we would not need to scribble formulas on boards and papers.

Or try making a statement that is true for all ships, at all speeds, with all possible signature radii, ...

I am not trying to give a precise statement here and you should not be looking for one.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-07-28 15:18:03 UTC
TQ>sisi>Eft>Math.
Whitehound
#18 - 2013-07-28 15:25:54 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
TQ>sisi>Eft>Math.

No. Math comes before all. You would not know what you were doing without it. Without it are you only poking the mechanics and trying to get lucky.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-07-28 15:28:40 UTC
Nah, sometimes the formulas are off, if mathematicly i would win but on tq i lose, my ship is dead, doesnt matter that im right in theory.
Whitehound
#20 - 2013-07-28 15:32:14 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Nah, sometimes the formulas are off, if mathematicly i would win but on tq i lose, my ship is dead, doesnt matter that im right in theory.

Without math would you not know that 1 plus 1 is 2. You are right in practise since you used a practical example, but OP was not giving any specifics. It is different for every ship and every situation. You only have not realized it yet.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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