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Bi-Mi Lansatha

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 288

#21 - 2013-08-01 10:48:07 UTC

Hello GoodSir wrote:

No need to flame just look at eve kill. Getting past the 5 man talos gank and the 10 man brutix ganks you find 6 mails on the first page of 5+b kills done by catalysts.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18950020
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18901518
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18873653
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18862265
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18858267
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18858268

PS. a catalyst has 850dps as per eve fit.

I see a pattern.

ISK Loss at time of kill: 5,194,680,000
ISK Loss at time of kill: 5,390,880,000
ISK Loss at time of kill: 5,585,960,000
ISK Loss at time of kill: 7,250,960,000
ISK Loss at time of kill: 5,987,600,000
ISK Loss at time of kill: 13,983,000,000


Bi-Mi Lansatha The Scope Gallente Federation Likes received: 288	#22 - 2013-08-01 11:17:11 UTC \| Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=18858268 Total Module Loss: 10,967,788,618.00 Total Module Drop: 8,075,324,322.00 Involved parties: 19 What is that 400M each? Minus the cost of their ship and modules.

mynnna

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,900

#23 - 2013-08-01 12:33:27 UTC

Hello GoodSir wrote:

PS. a catalyst has 850dps as per eve fit.

Uh.

No.

[Catalyst, 850 DPS]
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
[empty rig slot]

That, with 6% ROF and damage implants, overheating the guns, is what it takes to get 850 DPS from a Catalyst. Obviously not cost effective. Let's not go making things up to support our claims, shall we?

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Mallak Azaria

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 6,614

#24 - 2013-08-02 10:28:48 UTC

Alona Gene wrote:

There is a very simple way to fix this.
if concord is involved in killing you, YOU get no insurance pay out.

Proof that people in highsec have no idea how the game actually works.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Mallak Azaria

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 6,614

#25 - 2013-08-02 10:31:33 UTC

mynnna wrote:

Hello GoodSir wrote:

PS. a catalyst has 850dps as per eve fit.

No let the pubbie speak the truth. We obviously have the funds after our Technetium exploitation over the last 2 years to be able to field officer fit gank ships & still profit from the gank.

Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 18,382
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. Likes received: 18,382	#26 - 2013-08-02 12:18:48 UTC 3 Someone being hugely dishonest in a suicide gank thread? Well I never thought I'd see the day "Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming." Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Silvetica Dian

Imperial Shipment

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 1,113

#27 - 2013-08-02 13:13:24 UTC

I have only been on one suicide gank but thought i would share the story for people that say it is too easy.

The gank was lead by Elo Knight of BL fame.
he organised for many catalysts to be fitted and placed into target system.
then he organised a fleet of people to jump clone to high sec and buy the ships
then he sent out scouts while we stayed docked.
2 hours went past until we found a profitable target coming our way.
undock was ordered and bump ship started bumping.
quite a few people were afk by this time but no matter we still had enough this had been planned for.
we got a bad warp in so we were quite a ways off.
we started to burn at the freighter while elo screamed at everyone to hold fire until all were in range.
some didn't listen and started shooting.
then some more did.
concord turned up too soon.
we all died.
frieghter pilot lol'd at us whilst cleaning his underpants and warped off into the sunset.

So logistics, patience, numbers, discipline. doesn't take much for it all to break down and fail.
Going on the titan gank with Elo was quicker, easier and more fun tbh.
even if we had succeeded AND made 200 mill each it still wouldn't be worth repeating.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Kyon Rheyne

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 31

#28 - 2013-08-02 23:05:23 UTC | Edited by: Kyon Rheyne

Silvetica Dian wrote:

So logistics, patience, numbers, discipline. doesn't take much for it all to break down and fail.
Going on the titan gank with Elo was quicker, easier and more fun tbh.
even if we had succeeded AND made 200 mill each it still wouldn't be worth repeating.

1) U were just 'seasonable workers' of this trade, those who've done this for several times won't have those problems of yours.
2) No, it's not nesseraly all the planning and logistics. It can be done by several, or even one man easly:
a) Issue invites and register 20 new accs.
b) Pay for one month for each of them, and ur main char, which invites were used, will receive PLEXes for every subscirbed acc. Use them to prolong his subscription. So, u've basically got 20 new accs with 51 days on all them almost for free.
c) Train the minimal required skill set and use them for ganking, using allowed automating tools, like isboxer.
d) After 51 days (in fact, a little earlier, so new ones would be able to finish their training to the moment previous 20 spent their subscription time) drop/delete them and repeat from a)

Mallak Azaria

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 6,614

#29 - 2013-08-03 04:50:27 UTC

Kyon Rheyne wrote:

Silvetica Dian wrote:

1. So you're admitting that freighter ganking isn't as easy as you think it is.
2. If it's so easy for 1 person to gank freighters, why is literally everyone doing it with with their friends?
a. Anyone can do this for anything, not many people bother (and certainly not for ganking freighters).
b. People that actually do this enmasse tend to be of the mining variety. That fact that literally no one does this to suicide gank freighters should tell you something about the activities difficulty in setting up.
c. ISboxer isn't automation.
d. Recycling accounts is a bannable offence. If you think CCP wouldn't notice a person doing this every 51 days then you're very delusional.

Kyon Rheyne

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 31

#30 - 2013-08-03 12:38:03 UTC | Edited by: Kyon Rheyne

Mallak Azaria wrote:

1) I've never said its easy, I was saying its not sufficiently hard to pull, in financial and organizational in terms.
2) Because some people have more fun (from their point of view) things to do, and others have some moral constraints (yea, a plenty have), and others just don't know thats really so easy, or just prefer to continue along their beaten path. But u don't need a lot of people doing this, as u see, just a several people with several alts each per gang. And even few such gangs can wreck sufficient havoc in trade hubs regions.
c) Isboxer is automation tool in the sense that he allows to simultaneously order all these alt army"s accounts to take a specific action.
d) Do u work for CCP and have some insider info/statistics on that? Other than that, how can u tell? Currently this is a widespread practice. A lot of people create alts-salvagers, alt-scouts or small gangs of alts-carribers to farm missions quickly and without cooperation with real players, for free. I don't know about how easly my hypothetical scheme could be pulled, though - thats a lot of accs, being recycled constantly, so may be noticed quickly. But it seems like a solid approach to form cheap and easly managed one man suicide gang army, so why not? RMT has been battled for years, still for no avail. So there are always some loopholes general public don't know.about. And thats why something should be done about this to make such abusings not viable.

Mallak Azaria

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 6,614

#31 - 2013-08-03 21:05:02 UTC

Kyon Rheyne wrote:

Mallak Azaria wrote:

Alt recycling was a widespread practice, but now there is literally no reason to bother doing it because running at -10 is trivially easy. Couple this with the fact that there has been several high-profile bannings over the practice, which leads me to ask; Do you have insider information? If not, your argument has no basis.
ISboxer isn't an automation tool because it requires consistant player input, a bot requires zero human input. Your argument has no basis.
The reason you never see people solo ganking freighters is because it's insanely difficult to run 15 Catalysts, a Mach/SFI, a scan alt, an agressor alt & a freighter all at once & pull off flawless freighter ganks. Go on, try it. Tell us how easy it was for you.
Freighter ganking has been perfected by us over the course of the last year. It took a year to perfect the art, but somehow it's not sufficiently hard enough to do (Have you even tried organising your own freighter gank?).

I used to have a saying: People in highsec choose to be victims through refusal to implement the counters & mitigating actions available to them. Some things never change.

Ubumble

Sinpire

Likes received: 9

#32 - 2013-08-04 07:31:41 UTC

I guess this topic will be never-ending (been out of game for a year and here it still is). Some say worse than before, some say less.

Whether suicide ganking (frieghters, miners, whatever) is good or bad, IF CCP ever wanted to make it less attractive a simple mix of RL and sandbox mechanics should do the trick:

1. The "police" act like real police. Offenders are locked up and stolen goods recovered. 1 month locked in station, training turned off, no communication etc.
2. If podding of gank target involved, then execution, i.e. offending characters deleted and that alt-slot eliminated permanently from account
3. Extend associated kill rights (an additional 2 months after coming out of prison), add a decent concord bounty and make the kill rights tradeable

Repeat IF, IF, IF...before the tears lynch mobs start.

If not, it's gonna happen and we can assume CCP wants it to be part of the game. Just something to live with.
There are ways to reduce the risks, which ppl dnt always employ ( to their peril).


Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. Likes received: 18,382	#33 - 2013-08-04 08:21:44 UTC 6 If the police acted like real police they'd only turn up 1 time in 10, then there'd be a 50% chance they'd just shoot the nearest minmatar and go for donuts. "Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming." Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mallak Azaria

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 6,614

#34 - 2013-08-04 08:58:17 UTC

Malcanis wrote:

If the police acted like real police they'd only turn up 1 time in 10, then there'd be a 50% chance they'd just shoot the nearest minmatar and go for donuts.

And if these 'real police' were based off the police in my country, the criminal would get away scot-free while the victim has to suffer. Think about what you're asking for.

Ubumble

Sinpire

Likes received: 9

#35 - 2013-08-04 11:50:36 UTC

Mallak Azaria wrote:

Malcanis wrote:

If the police acted like real police they'd only turn up 1 time in 10, then there'd be a 50% chance they'd just shoot the nearest minmatar and go for donuts.

And if these 'real police' were based off the police in my country, the criminal would get away scot-free while the victim has to suffer. Think about what you're asking for.

Not asking for police from inefficient states rife with corruption (most, unfortunately). But this is a game, run by algorithms so police can be programmed with whatever level of error is desired.

So difficult to separate RL principle from imagined RL statistics?

And pls read - I'm not asking for this, just stating how simple for CCP to attack the issue, if they wish.

Gizznitt Malikite

Agony Unleashed

Agony Empire

Likes received: 4,267

#36 - 2013-08-04 17:59:23 UTC

Kyon Rheyne wrote:

ShahFluffers wrote:

Why not? I know real life examples are bad and all but...

A 200,000 dollar shoulder-fired missile has the capacity to blow up a multi-million dollar helicopter or plane.

And how often IRL that happens in "hisec" areas, like in Washington or London? How easly one can pull such a thing, and if it's not that easy to pull, than for what reason? IRL world we have a whole layer of national security constantly working behind the scenes, and of course, by background story, we have it in EVE universe too. But in fact it manifests itself only after the trigger has been pulled. Yea, the eve uni is much more turbulent and wild, but that've already gone too far. I have no problem with ganking someone with valuable posessions, with not so cheap suicide ship involved, that somehow reflect the need to make some efforts and spend funds to prepare and commit such atrocity in high secure area. So, to somehow balance this we need such level of concord's reaction time and dps, that will call for proportionate fund investment from suicide ganker.
And there are one other head of this hydra - because it not so costly of a trade, it allows for SG for fun, when ur just kill anyone you like/don't like, without any real profit. And combine this with unprecendent ease of aquiring another fully functional (not a trial!) alt in eve for the moment..

....

ShahFluffers wrote:

And why SHOULDN'T a lot of organized cheaper ships be able to nuke a larger, more expensive ship?

Because, if we speak in terms of EVE IS REAL, most of them would have been preemptivly stopped by national security and police, and turned into examples why someone shouldn't mess with The Service. And because if, IRL, we had an outrage with intense increasing of murders and property damaging in higly civilized urban areas, these services would reacted quickly and came in arms to stabilize situation and get the city block or even whole city under control. And that dinamic reaction of law enforcment agencies is completely absent from EVE too. So to compare it with IRL's state of affairs as it is is basically wrong. EVE consists of huge pile of abstractions and artificial, far-fetched restrictions, added to the game just to balance things which ccp can't/doesnt want to simulate properly. And this particular aspect isn't well balanced currently.

Your answers are completely disingenuous:

IRL, we have laws, purposely limited access to supplies, and security organizations that attempt to thwart a shoulder fired missile from ever reaching the hands of a civilian (criminal or not). In EvE, highsec is still a WAR zone, where you can buy military equipment at the local convenience store. A more apt comparison would be, how effectively do the security organizations of Washington DC thwart gun related crimes? I'll give you a hint: Despite all our "laws" and "regulations"; despite our tirelessly working police forces, criminals regularly access guns, they regularly commit crimes with guns, and police rarely ever arrive in time to stop gun-related violence. And this analogy still isn't truly appropriate for EvE, as our "gun laws" "prevent" the legal sales of weapons to "criminals", where it completely 100% allowed to sell military hardware to anyone, anywhere, in EvE.

Finally, do you really think it takes so little effort to get a group of ships together and gank a freighter for profit? Most of those freighter km's listed have 4+ month old characters.

Mag's

Azn Empire

Likes received: 21,366

#37 - 2013-08-06 09:32:00 UTC

Hello GoodSir wrote:

This arguement is so dated. Defending high sec ganking based on PvP Eve logic makes no sense as High Sec ganking has nothing to do with actual PvP. High sec ganking is science done by spreadsheets and cheap tactics.
An invulnerable bump ship.
A handful of trash ships that meet a spreadsheet requirement to kill a ship with a set unchangeable HP. (yes skills can change it but the gankers just calculate that).
There is no skill and barely any effort; PvP logic doesn't apply.

If you want to pop a frigate with plex theres nothing wrong with that in eve. The problems with high sec ganking are mostly centered around freighters.

Catalyst = 1.2m
Light Neutron II x 8 (866k) = 6.928m
Magnetic field stab II x3 (894k) = 2.682m
1MN MIcro Warp Drive x1 (80k) = 80K
Antimatter Navy (20 per gun =160) = 80k

10,970,000

Ahh so we now have figures from you, but you said the following in your OP:

Hello GoodSir wrote:

It just doesnt seem right that a few catalysts costing 5m can easily down a freighter or T3 or BS in highsec without sever consequences. Losing 50m worth of catalysts is easily offset by suiciding anything of slight value.

Then said:

Hello GoodSir wrote:

PS. a catalyst has 850dps as per eve fit.

So you said 5 million per Catalyst, but then gave us a fit without rigs costing 10.97.
You said 850 DPS per Catalyst, but your fit only does 580.7 overloaded. (Level 5 skills player)

I think your going to have to rethink your figures.

Oh and there is skill, logic and effort, that goes into these ganks. But you not knowing this, doesn't surprise me in the slightest. And Player verses Player, is PvP. Just what do you think PvP is an acronym for?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Oliver Stoned

Republic Military School

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 17

#38 - 2013-08-11 05:02:47 UTC

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I say we let them gank to their hearts content... BUT there are consequences.
Not only should they loose their sec status, but loose faction status to who owns the system.
Stations should not let them dock if it's bad enough or pay a penalty.
Example:
Your ship will be towed into statio... wait, you've been a bad boy. You must pay a fine of xyz isk.
A "ganker" tax should be implemented so as their standings get worse, they pay more for market and contract items.

If you really wanted to cover it, how about this?
Concord Special Victims Unit

Mallak Azaria

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 6,614

#39 - 2013-08-11 08:01:25 UTC

Oliver Stoned wrote:

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I could definately support this, but highsec needs to be nerfed to balance it out.

Nerf highsec.

TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium 97
Sylphy TSOE Po1ice TSOE Consortium Likes received: 97	#40 - 2013-08-12 08:27:20 UTC How about they implement changes for Concord to pod people below a certain sec status. The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.