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Why "high sec bears" don't go to null

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#81 - 2013-07-27 23:51:51 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Do you seriously think I created this thread? Yeesh.

Sorry, i did read wrong on your name and the op's name.


Easily forgiven.

Quote:
^ this is one example of the real reason nobody goes to null, except in an alliance. If you go out there solo, it's you versus the blue donut. The above comment is just one of many that really has nothing to do with the original post. It was a post about the logistics of flying around in null, not a request for fitting advice. But, yet, it works, because if they can just discourage you over and over, if they can make it seem insurmountable without "friends", then we'll all just stay in empire until we're ready to kiss someone's ass out in sovereign null.

It's classic "double binds". If you go out to null on your own, you are doing it wrong because of bad fitting, just join alliance, NPC null. If you stay in empire, you are doing it wrong because of carebear, teh pvp, ISK.


You're very misguided. Is it really easier to believe that all the residents of nullsec (and everyone else who disagrees with someone like the OP) are all engaged in some kind of conspiracy to keep other people out of nullsec by engaging in this kind of double blind public shaming?

Or that, maybe, people who we claim are doing it wrong, actually are?

Which makes more sense to you?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#82 - 2013-07-28 00:43:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Even still, it is a fact that null is more dangerous.
How can you call it more dangerous when null bears remove ALL risk by docking as soon as someone comes close to their system? The perfection of local means there is zero practical risk, whatever the possible risk.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Many of those nullbears are highsec players who'se corp rented ratting space. You can see many adds for such in the recruitment forum here and in the iname recruitment ads.
So nullsec renters aren't 'real' null sec players? I agree and it is a strong indication that there is something badly wrong with null mechanics.

You have just said it: farmers choose null. Why do you think that is? Risk vs reward favours null rather than highsec. They need shooting.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#83 - 2013-07-28 00:47:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I don't remember menting her fit.

And I don't know how you can call "going to null sec unprepared and getting into a fight with a paper thin ratting ship that costs a fraction of a Proteus and almost losing " a -success- LOL.

Why not...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#84 - 2013-07-28 00:50:26 UTC
Zappity wrote:
How can you call it more dangerous when null bears remove ALL risk by docking as soon as someone comes close to their system? The perfection of local means there is zero practical risk, whatever the possible risk.


Not true. Some people aren't watching local or intel (they should be). The risk is that they aren't and judging by the number of km I see, that risk isn't as low as you think.
ELWhappo Sanchez
#85 - 2013-07-28 01:14:14 UTC
I agree ccp should sprinkle npc stations all over null sec so all us high sec bears can dock any where in null also.
ccp wants more people in null put your money where your mouth is.
Yaturi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-07-28 01:23:23 UTC
No, logistics should always be a component of 0.0 warfare. If you cant properly fit yourself before hand you have no business trying to rub noses with null bears. The ability to make incursions into null sec should be diminished in its start up costs.

Again, outlawing or lowering the price of learning implants would go a long way into doing just that.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#87 - 2013-07-28 01:25:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Klandi wrote:
Hi - hi sec bear here...

Why don't I go to null - because I can't make ISK selling stuff to null sec care-bears.

I can't dock in their stations, don't want to join them because 3am CTA is not going to be a part of my life - don't want to rat cos I'm an industrialist - can't mine the moons and need to make isk because I'm been ganked all the time. (Don't mind that at all either)

Risk adverse - nah - I have no problem about risk, but ISK losing - THAT I'm adverse to


If you want to do that you can go to providence.

I used to go to providence to rat sec status back up and the residents not only mined in the regular belts but would warp their exhumer straight to the belt I was ratting in, now you might think this is a stupid risk, but, I never blew them up, and would clear the little rats out too if they were there. There were other neuts there too, going about their commerce or ratting or whatever, it was busy busy by null standards. Some people say that nrds is stupid but the reward is not isk but these sorts of novel interactions which are a reward in themselves and more fun than roaming around the risk averse nbsi tundra catching a few sabres at gates. Providence is the one place where the events shown in eve trailers might actually have a chance to happen.
Yaturi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-07-28 01:33:44 UTC


if it cost me 5 mil to put in 5 improved implants, then i'll pvp more

if they were outlawed in highsec altogether then what would be the big deal about them. Being only allowed in hostile space, makes them a better catalyst for pvp in general.

The way its setup now its just as big a barrier to the game as learning skills used to be.

Most players, high low and null, frown on losing skill time. And this issue just antagonizes it more so.

It has nothing to do with jump cloning or the ability to jump clone
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2013-07-28 01:37:30 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Even still, it is a fact that null is more dangerous.
How can you call it more dangerous when null bears remove ALL risk by docking as soon as someone comes close to their system? The perfection of local means there is zero practical risk, whatever the possible risk.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Many of those nullbears are highsec players who'se corp rented ratting space. You can see many adds for such in the recruitment forum here and in the iname recruitment ads.
So nullsec renters aren't 'real' null sec players? I agree and it is a strong indication that there is something badly wrong with null mechanics.

You have just said it: farmers choose null. Why do you think that is? Risk vs reward favours null rather than highsec. They need shooting.

You don't seem to understand the definition of risk. Just because you can mitigate risk doesn't mean it isn't there.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#90 - 2013-07-28 02:03:59 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Even still, it is a fact that null is more dangerous.
How can you call it more dangerous when null bears remove ALL risk by docking as soon as someone comes close to their system? The perfection of local means there is zero practical risk, whatever the possible risk.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Many of those nullbears are highsec players who'se corp rented ratting space. You can see many adds for such in the recruitment forum here and in the iname recruitment ads.
So nullsec renters aren't 'real' null sec players? I agree and it is a strong indication that there is something badly wrong with null mechanics.

You have just said it: farmers choose null. Why do you think that is? Risk vs reward favours null rather than highsec. They need shooting.

You don't seem to understand the definition of risk. Just because you can mitigate risk doesn't mean it isn't there.


You are correct if you want to play semantics. For the purposes of this discussion I figured a risk that can be entirely mitigated by the simple expedient of watching local is no longer a risk.

Example: it might rain so you take an umbrella. Are you at risk of getting soaked? Of course - it might rain. But will you actually get wet? No, not as long as you put the umbrella up.

The fact that risk-averse farmer corps have gone to null sov is testament to the fact that the actual risk is very low. I don't think that should be the purpose of null, that's all.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#91 - 2013-07-28 02:05:10 UTC
ELWhappo Sanchez wrote:
I agree ccp should sprinkle npc stations all over null sec so all us high sec bears can dock any where in null also.
ccp wants more people in null put your money where your mouth is.



Based on what I am seeing during incursions into nullsec, there are NPC stations out there.

Use your agent finder and you will see that there are such stations, as it will show you where every agent of a given faction is. Make sure you don't filter out "not available to you". Also, check some of the pirate factions too.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2013-07-28 02:36:04 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

I don't want to fight NPC null peeps, I want to murder Sov null bears who think they should be allowed to carebear in complete safety. We should be encouraged to fight in true null not discouraged.


You have been cloaky proteus lurking in Period Basis.
There are NPC stations with good markets just around the corner from there, srsly 70+ jumps? Try the filters on the starmap.
The locals in Period Basis are deployed to lowsec near Fountain, so home defence is likely to be a bit drab right now.
You and your iWin ship are a bit of a joke if you don't know what's going on in the area you're hunting in.
I lived solo out of a can flying either a thrasher or a cyclone for months, east of N-RAEL. Moving good loots back to hisec through the sometimes very perky bubble camps got to be a drag. Watched PL destroy ATLAS and picked up scraps as people fled the aftermath. Not knowing the political landscape is flying blind.

How come i never EVER see hostiles like you around VFK? There's an NPC station at R-OIR not far for a cloaky to get to from Torrinos.
Srsly, do you even spaecship?



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Lavititcus
Dark Nexxus
S0ns Of Anarchy
#93 - 2013-07-28 02:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lavititcus
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lavititcus wrote:
I believe the general consensus here is "shield Proteus=fail Proteus". Stop defending it. Don't stop flying it by any means, but stop trying to justify it. The dps may be slightly higher and may be faster than the armor tanked (read design intent) one, but at least the armor fitted Proteus doesn't waste a subsystem slot, it utilizes it. The shield tanked Proteus is a novel idea, but a complete waste of time for anyone who's trained any skills that has anything to do with actually flying one. Any ship OTHER than a T3, and I would not have said anything. But with the T3 line, and with the way defensive subsystems actually work, flying it like you do is going to turn it into a wreck.
I know you won't actually listen.
You will continue to defend your idea, saying we aren't "thinking outside of the box" enough.
A shield tank Proteus is a dead Proteus. Fly a Loki, if you want to trade tanks. But, you're the kind of person to fit the armor sub, and shield tank it...

Show me a Cov Loki that will give me 711 dps and A 1500 burst tank and I might.


Not my job to hold your hand.
If you're incapable of seeing your own shortcomings in this, I can't help you.
We're all born ignorant, you've invested a lot of effort to remain that way.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-07-28 02:56:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Not posting on my main, and loving it. Because free speech.


You're hiding behind an alt to avoid the very same "public shaming" that you claim is not happening. Are you even sane?

Do I think you got on here to further your own agenda or do I think you got on here out of the kindness of your heart to help the OP and others be all they can be in EVE Online? What I think is pretty obvious. What do you think?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-07-28 03:27:52 UTC
Zappity wrote:
The fact that risk-averse farmer corps have gone to null sov is testament to the fact that the actual risk is very low. I don't think that should be the purpose of null, that's all.

if they're in null, they're not risk-averse no matter how many times you call them that. and if you couldn't mitigate risk long enough to get some isk-making done, there'd be no reason to go to null ever. sov null is supposed to be a place where people can actually live.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Do I think you got on here to further your own agenda or do I think you got on here out of the kindness of your heart to help the OP and others be all they can be in EVE Online? What I think is pretty obvious. What do you think?
your opinion has never actually mattered to anyone
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2013-07-28 03:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Zappity wrote:
You are correct if you want to play semantics. For the purposes of this discussion I figured a risk that can be entirely mitigated by the simple expedient of watching local is no longer a risk.

It's still greater than the risk incurred when carebearing in highsec. Someone can wardec you (mitigated by playing in an NPC corp), or someone can bait you (mitigated by not being stupid) or someone can suicide gank you (mitigated by not being stupid).


In highsec can you go afk on a busy gate for hours without getting killed? Yes.
In nullsec, can you do this? Usually no, you can't.

Again, the risk is objectively higher, and just because you can take steps to avoid or mitigate it (an option you should always have) doesn't mean it isn't there.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-07-28 03:40:25 UTC
Klandi wrote:
Hi - hi sec bear here...

Why don't I go to null - because I can't make ISK selling stuff to null sec care-bears.

I can't dock in their stations, don't want to join them because 3am CTA is not going to be a part of my life - don't want to rat cos I'm an industrialist - can't mine the moons and need to make isk because I'm been ganked all the time. (Don't mind that at all either)

Risk adverse - nah - I have no problem about risk, but ISK losing - THAT I'm adverse to


I only alarm clock voluntarily.

And if you get ganked all of the time you screwed up.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2013-07-28 03:43:23 UTC
If any alliance berates or punishes you for not alarmclocking, they're terrible and deserve to die in a fire.

More reasonable alliances recognize that real life comes first and that you play on your own time, but also that you should contribute wherever you can. Most don't tolerate leeches.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#99 - 2013-07-28 03:49:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Zappity wrote:
You are correct if you want to play semantics. For the purposes of this discussion I figured a risk that can be entirely mitigated by the simple expedient of watching local is no longer a risk.

It's still greater than the risk incurred when carebearing in highsec. Someone can wardec you (mitigated by playing in an NPC corp), or someone can bait you (mitigated by not being stupid) or someone can suicide gank you (mitigated by not being stupid).


In highsec can you go afk on a busy gate for hours without getting killed? Yes.
In nullsec, can you do this? Usually no, you can't.

Again, the risk is objectively higher, and just because you can take steps to avoid or mitigate it (an option you should always have) doesn't mean it isn't there.


A reasonable response. The gates example is a strong point.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
ELWhappo Sanchez
#100 - 2013-07-28 04:03:09 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
ELWhappo Sanchez wrote:
I agree ccp should sprinkle npc stations all over null sec so all us high sec bears can dock any where in null also.
ccp wants more people in null put your money where your mouth is.



Based on what I am seeing during incursions into nullsec, there are NPC stations out there.

Use your agent finder and you will see that there are such stations, as it will show you where every agent of a given faction is. Make sure you don't filter out "not available to you". Also, check some of the pirate factions too.



that's funny I've been to the drone regions and there's no npc stations there just in npc null.
i'm talking about putting npc stations all through null that anyone can use.