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Why "high sec bears" don't go to null

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Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#241 - 2013-08-01 14:47:42 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
EVE is a sandbox. A sandbox is similar to a voting in many aspects.
The situation in EVE as-is - no matter where you go - is not so much because of mechanics. They play a part, yes.
Mainly though it is because the total of players "voted" EVE to be the way it is through the total of their actions.

Lets just assume some different scenarios that would make EVE totally different without changing the mechanics:

Largest Alliance would be 500 players:
If the largest Alliance was 500 players, meaning about 125 online at the same time on good days, Null Sec would look very different. There would be no large "Empires" that remind us of the Cold War with the occasional sexy Hot War phase. There would be smaller fiefdoms. The map would look like middle age Europe.

There are no dedicated HS players...
Every player suddenly decides the Universe is his. High Sec, Low Sec, Null Sec are all cluttered with solo players, small gangs, mid-seized gangs and activity. There are mercs protecting miners and there is simply too much small scale traffic to blob em all.
Once again, this would be a very different EVE from what we have today.


There is only one Alliance controlling all of Null Sec
Boring as hell, but conceivable in the long run. It wouldn't actually be that different from what we have today, in many aspects.

There are more Alliances with open border policies and open stations
This would be the "good guys/bad guys" scenario. Also stations in Null Sec would be stocked and trade would be wider and more interesting.
etc...

All of this is speculation. But the EVE universe could look different, if the silent consensus that EVE players made between themselves was different.

This in turn would make your game experience different.

The only part about the mechanics I dislike is how easy it is to hold Sov over vast amounts of space. There is the constant blubber against (mostly HS) AFK miners, but the endless stretches of empty yet claimed space are the biggest AFK monument ever, really. This is waste and a shame. But once again, we can only blame the mechanics second.


This post is the height of wishful thinking. It ignores reality in so many places , one would have to write a dissertaiton on why it's wrong.

One small example, alliances opening their space to others. Go to NPC nullsec and observe ANY npc station to see what happens when you do that.


I would like to read your dissertation. So you believe that everything from the start of EVE till now was ... divine fulfillment or something? You are talking of the as-is, while I was just pointing out that the sandbox can look different, if the people in it had acted/would decide to act in different ways.

The whole point was to show that the mechanics are less a cause for as-is than the actions/mindset of the players as a total. But, well, I guess you missed that point conveniently so you could show me how smart you are?
Which was of course never at doubt to begin with. I congratulate you warmly - you are an intelligent being. Roll

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2013-08-01 14:53:28 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

This post is the height of wishful thinking. It ignores reality in so many places , one would have to write a dissertaiton on why it's wrong.

One small example, alliances opening their space to others. Go to NPC nullsec and observe ANY npc station to see what happens when you do that.


I would like to read your dissertation. So you believe that everything from the start of EVE till now was ... divine fulfillment or something? You are talking of the as-is, while I was just pointing out that the sandbox can look different, if the people in it had acted/would decide to act in different ways.

The whole point was to show that the mechanics are less a cause for as-is than the actions/mindset of the players as a total. But, well, I guess you missed that point conveniently so you could show me how smart you are?
Which was of course never at doubt to begin with. I congratulate you warmly - you are an intelligent being. Roll

Not the players as a total. The vast majority of players exist in high sec. They don't take part in 0.0 because of the way its been developed into Days of our Pods and Billionaire.

CCP have a hard on for huge fleet battles and Sov. They don't care if the majority of the subscribers who fund it don't play in it for some odd reason.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#243 - 2013-08-01 14:54:48 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Quote:
There is the constant blubber against (mostly HS) AFK miners, but the endless stretches of empty yet claimed space are the biggest AFK monument ever, really.
This. It's like a frigging ghost town. But just try and break into it with a small corp and no alliance backing and see what happens.


You get ignored mostly, unless you start to claim the system for yourself, in which case things go boom - mainly your things. ;)

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#244 - 2013-08-01 14:59:44 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:


I would like to read your dissertation. So you believe that everything from the start of EVE till now was ... divine fulfillment or something? You are talking of the as-is, while I was just pointing out that the sandbox can look different, if the people in it had acted/would decide to act in different ways.


Which is why your post is "pie in the sky" thinking. We know how people act (ie we know people are predictable in some ways but that no systems stands up to the creativity of human beings so trying to "design outcomes" so to speak is difficult) and saying things like "if alliances open their space it would create a good guy/bad guy dynamic" is overly simple thinking that would probably not work.

Quote:

The whole point was to show that the mechanics are less a cause for as-is than the actions/mindset of the players as a total. But, well, I guess you missed that point conveniently so you could show me how smart you are?
Which was of course never at doubt to begin with. I congratulate you warmly - you are an intelligent being. Roll


I know it's human nature to look outwards, but it's annoying. You and only you decide to post something that amounts to nonsense, when criticized you (like many) seem more comfortable with the thought that I'm somehow your problem , rather than examine why your post elicits the response. Point blank I think what you wrote is wrong-headed in the extreme, even if the motivation for it (saying it's mindset rather than mechanics) could (and I think does) have some merit. But as i say to others, if getting mad at me helps you, go ahead lol.

This is why so many people that come to this (and every) forum have so many "brilliant" ideas, but almost none of them ever make a single penny as a game designer lol.
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#245 - 2013-08-01 15:05:52 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

This post is the height of wishful thinking. It ignores reality in so many places , one would have to write a dissertaiton on why it's wrong.

One small example, alliances opening their space to others. Go to NPC nullsec and observe ANY npc station to see what happens when you do that.


I would like to read your dissertation. So you believe that everything from the start of EVE till now was ... divine fulfillment or something? You are talking of the as-is, while I was just pointing out that the sandbox can look different, if the people in it had acted/would decide to act in different ways.

The whole point was to show that the mechanics are less a cause for as-is than the actions/mindset of the players as a total. But, well, I guess you missed that point conveniently so you could show me how smart you are?
Which was of course never at doubt to begin with. I congratulate you warmly - you are an intelligent being. Roll

Not the players as a total. The vast majority of players exist in high sec. They don't take part in 0.0 because of the way its been developed into Days of our Pods and Billionaire.

CCP have a hard on for huge fleet battles and Sov. They don't care if the majority of the subscribers who fund it don't play in it for some odd reason.


As said, what I wrote was speculations based on "turn the clock back/change the world" theory. Not reality.
Still, this HS majority of players decides what they do with their time in EVE every time they log on. No one stamped "HS" on them.

A good point is the "Days of our Pods & Billionaire" part. There was a shove from CCP to get more people into Low & Null Sec that ended in them realizing that this is pretty futile in the end, I'd say.
I wonder what would happen if ressources - all ressources - were completely evenly spread across the universe.

Huge fleet battles seem to sell themselves. A friend of mine recently returned to EVE because he saw a vid of "Flight of Rifters" and the other late big battles. He had played EVE before. Meanwhile he left again - something I predicted he would the moment he joined. But it shows that the advertising factor of huge battles is there.

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#246 - 2013-08-01 15:11:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Not the players as a total. The vast majority of players exist in high sec. They don't take part in 0.0 because of the way its been developed into Days of our Pods and Billionaire.

CCP have a hard on for huge fleet battles and Sov.


You mean like most people who like sconce fiction? Have you never seen a Star Wars or Star Trek Movie/tv show.

This again demonstrates par tof your malfunction: you can't serpeate personal dislike from "this is broken" (you do that with the local issue too). Many people like big fleet fights and the idea of sov.

Quote:

They don't care if the majority of the subscribers who fund it don't play in it for some odd reason.


You have no way of knowing -where- a "majority of subscribers" play. CCP has never said, all they have ever told is that a majority of CHARACTERS are in high sec.

I, like I suspect many multiple account holders do, have more characters in high sec right now than anywhere else. Many of the "people" you see in high sec are alts of null/low/Wh players.

All of which is moot. EVE has more than enough places for "solo" people to play (even sov null sec, if you are willing to take pains to do it), but for some reason, some people think they should be able to "solo" the entire game no matter how the content is designed .

People who believe that are wrong. Period. Now i'm going to take my noob ship into an incursion and i damn well better make isk CCP, because 15 bux.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#247 - 2013-08-01 15:19:02 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Quote:
There is the constant blubber against (mostly HS) AFK miners, but the endless stretches of empty yet claimed space are the biggest AFK monument ever, really.
This. It's like a frigging ghost town. But just try and break into it with a small corp and no alliance backing and see what happens.

You get ignored mostly, unless you start to claim the system for yourself, in which case things go boom - mainly your things. ;)

Nullsec is pretty harsh and cold.

Supposedly wormholes are the way to go for elite pve

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
arktyus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-08-01 15:20:19 UTC
As a noob, I don't even know where null sec is. Been out to low sec a lot, but never null. Would like to get into a decent null corp. and see what it has to offer. It seems like it is really hard to get out there and there really isn't any reason to go unless you live out there. At least that is what my noob experience thinks
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#249 - 2013-08-01 15:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Aidan Brooder
Quote:
Which is why your post is "pie in the sky" thinking. We know how people act (ie we know people are predictable in some ways but that no systems stands up to the creativity of human beings so trying to "design outcomes" so to speak is difficult) and saying things like "if alliances open their space it would create a good guy/bad guy dynamic" is overly simple thinking that would probably not work.


Of course it is over-simplified. Do you expect me to write a dissertation myself on all these scenarios?
Aside from the fact that without "pie in the sky" thinking we would ironically never left trees as a species.

Quote:

I know it's human nature to look outwards, but it's annoying. You and only you decide to post something that amounts to nonsense, when criticized you (like many) seem more comfortable with the thought that I'm somehow your problem , rather than examine why your post elicits the response. Point blank I think what you wrote is wrong-headed in the extreme, even if the motivation for it (saying it's mindset rather than mechanics) could (and I think does) have some merit. But as i say to others, if getting mad at me helps you, go ahead lol.


I think it is my decision to either accept or reject criticism. In your case it was not criticism I felt through your post.
It was the usual EVE forum: "Let us ignore the core of what he said and find something to make it look stupid."

The core of my posting was:
EVE players decide what EVE looks like. Mechanics are a second factor. Followed by some - indeed simplified - examples of what could be. On which you swooped down.

Instead of writing: "Well, there is a point, but...", you chose to phrase your answer in a less neutral way and just got an echo phrased in the same style.

Whereas the core of my answer to you was: "You did not get my argument..."

And now you complain because another human being does not agree with your analysis.
No hard feelings - you'll get that a lot till you hit the coffin one day.

Just like all the rest of us. Be sure I make the same mistake on these forums often enough myself. Blink

As to the predictability of humans: Yes, you can predict the actions of masses pretty well. Harder to predict individuals. And both can be influenced to act differently.
That is why Spartacus slave army ended up on crosses, while most would probably have predicted their lives ended in some grave after a long life of hard work.

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#250 - 2013-08-01 15:21:47 UTC
It depends if you know anyone. If not you're an awoxing alt or a spy.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#251 - 2013-08-01 15:32:53 UTC
arktyus wrote:
As a noob, I don't even know where null sec is. Been out to low sec a lot, but never null. Would like to get into a decent null corp. and see what it has to offer. It seems like it is really hard to get out there and there really isn't any reason to go unless you live out there. At least that is what my noob experience thinks


It is really easy to get out there. Most of the systems are empty or there are some null bears that'll dock. Since this seems so inconceivable, I'll probably do a video showing Null Sec this weekend.

It is not as easy but doable to join one of the large Null Sec Alliances (but beware their recruitment scams...).
If that is what you want to do. That is really a question of your prefered playstyle...

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#252 - 2013-08-01 15:36:52 UTC
Bring a cyno and have PL on the line.

Actually scratch that, you probably need NC to help you hotdrop.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#253 - 2013-08-01 15:40:16 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Bring a cyno and have PL on the line.

Actually scratch that, you probably need NC to help you hotdrop.


Jovian artillery support usually does the trick...
The sacrifice of a Black Goat at the New Eden gate supposedly also helps.

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#254 - 2013-08-01 15:49:11 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Quote:
There is the constant blubber against (mostly HS) AFK miners, but the endless stretches of empty yet claimed space are the biggest AFK monument ever, really.
This. It's like a frigging ghost town. But just try and break into it with a small corp and no alliance backing and see what happens.




Break in without the corp/alliance.

You don't have to own the house to burn it down.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
arktyus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2013-08-01 15:54:29 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:
arktyus wrote:
As a noob, I don't even know where null sec is. Been out to low sec a lot, but never null. Would like to get into a decent null corp. and see what it has to offer. It seems like it is really hard to get out there and there really isn't any reason to go unless you live out there. At least that is what my noob experience thinks


It is really easy to get out there. Most of the systems are empty or there are some null bears that'll dock. Since this seems so inconceivable, I'll probably do a video showing Null Sec this weekend.

It is not as easy but doable to join one of the large Null Sec Alliances (but beware their recruitment scams...).
If that is what you want to do. That is really a question of your prefered playstyle...


There are recruitment scams? How does that work? Get you out there and then blow you up? Who would want to join that corp/alliance. But then again this is eve and people spam scams in Jita all day everyday.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#256 - 2013-08-01 15:56:49 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Quote:
There is the constant blubber against (mostly HS) AFK miners, but the endless stretches of empty yet claimed space are the biggest AFK monument ever, really.
This. It's like a frigging ghost town. But just try and break into it with a small corp and no alliance backing and see what happens.




Break in without the corp/alliance.

You don't have to own the house to burn it down.


True, but you do have to fight and kill more than just cyno frigs to burn anything down. Because if that's all you can do, then you're just another "afk" cloaker.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#257 - 2013-08-01 16:03:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Quote:
There is the constant blubber against (mostly HS) AFK miners, but the endless stretches of empty yet claimed space are the biggest AFK monument ever, really.
This. It's like a frigging ghost town. But just try and break into it with a small corp and no alliance backing and see what happens.




Break in without the corp/alliance.

You don't have to own the house to burn it down.


True, but you do have to fight and kill more than just cyno frigs to burn anything down. Because if that's all you can do, then you're just another "afk" cloaker.




It's a little "Baghdad Bob" of you to cling to this notion that all they are killing are cyno frigs.

A day is coming when you will wish it were only cyno frigs.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#258 - 2013-08-01 16:05:45 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It depends if you know anyone. If not you're an awoxing alt or a spy.


So last night, I was a spy right?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#259 - 2013-08-01 16:06:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Quote:
There is the constant blubber against (mostly HS) AFK miners, but the endless stretches of empty yet claimed space are the biggest AFK monument ever, really.
This. It's like a frigging ghost town. But just try and break into it with a small corp and no alliance backing and see what happens.




Break in without the corp/alliance.

You don't have to own the house to burn it down.


True, but you do have to fight and kill more than just cyno frigs to burn anything down. Because if that's all you can do, then you're just another "afk" cloaker.

You say "afk" cloaker likes it's a bad thing.... wtf?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#260 - 2013-08-01 16:06:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Quote:
There is the constant blubber against (mostly HS) AFK miners, but the endless stretches of empty yet claimed space are the biggest AFK monument ever, really.
This. It's like a frigging ghost town. But just try and break into it with a small corp and no alliance backing and see what happens.




Break in without the corp/alliance.

You don't have to own the house to burn it down.


True, but you do have to fight and kill more than just cyno frigs to burn anything down. Because if that's all you can do, then you're just another "afk" cloaker.


Is that mining barges I smell there from yesterday? ;) Ah, well. Lets not start this again.

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x