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Are Capsuleers definitively "Immortal" outside of their ships?

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Ruaro
Space monitoring
#41 - 2013-08-14 05:50:56 UTC
Rangh Ovaert wrote:


Acutally never being able to leave the pod would be in my opinion the most radical and satisfying solution to this question. It would be the ultimate price you pay for being immortal.



But then why we have our bodies/faces in the first place if we are just some biomass in pods? We could have some nice pod creation mechanism. Also bodies in space after pod destruction are obsolete too?

Then character creation process is what? just for fun or for easier self-avareness (personification) and mental health only?
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#42 - 2013-08-14 06:12:55 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
pilots have access to expensive cybernetics, expensive weapons, expensive armour and gear, and if it comes to that, can afford to pay for an elite bodyguard. The pilot themselves may or may not be a dangerous combatant, but the two ex-megacorporate "Personnel Affairs Agents" with DUST implants in their heads and augmented muscles who are following them at a discrete distance in nice and anonymous, but capacious suits?

Bear in mind, in real life there is such a thing as armoured clothing, to be worn by politicians. It's good enough to stop a 9mm handgun at point blank range. and in the EVE world, we know dropsuits have shield emitters, maybe you can buy more discreet ones that operate under clothing.

So the scenario is: you attack the capsuleer. With their heightened cybernetic reflexes, they dodge the attack, or with their expensive armoured executive clothing and shield emitter belt they are spared the worst of it. An instant later their bodyguard have drawn scrambler pistols and you are now a microwave dinner. The capsuleer pays any fines and expenses to the station management and loses the miniscule cost in a cunning tax return the next time they sell a shipment of missile launchers. Your corpse is thrown in the biomass vats and used to fertilise the stations' hydroponics bay.


Delicious.

Big smile

And then someone gets a facefull of Nyx screaming "OH YEAAAAH" in Local.

What happen then?

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#43 - 2013-08-15 08:06:25 UTC
Dobie Mercault wrote:
We know that there was cloning before capsules.
Therefore, presumably, there is very likely to still be cloning tech available outside of a capsule, even for a capsuleer.

Capsules are special because they're the combination of cloning and neural interfacing that allows a ship to be piloted more effectively.

It seems to be a common misconception that cloning is only as old as the capsule is, and that's what makes them special, but it's made repeatedly clear all throughout the lore that cloning has been around for a long, long time.

One distinction that might be drawn in types of cloning is how well memories are kept. In the capsule rebirth, you remember everything up to the moment of death. A non-capsule rebirth might only restore the memories that were "backed up" during the last brain scan, or whatever. Or there may be ways to "transfer" memories even while out of pod, as is suggested in at least one chronicle.


That's what I was about to say, you can be cloned without a capsule, there is just a "memory loss" from the last scan. And guess what ? Every capsuleer that died at least once, has at least done one brain scan :p

Of course, usualy with non-capsule cloning if I remember well, these scans are non-destructive and slow.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-08-16 03:48:23 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Dobie Mercault wrote:
We know that there was cloning before capsules.
Therefore, presumably, there is very likely to still be cloning tech available outside of a capsule, even for a capsuleer.

Capsules are special because they're the combination of cloning and neural interfacing that allows a ship to be piloted more effectively.

It seems to be a common misconception that cloning is only as old as the capsule is, and that's what makes them special, but it's made repeatedly clear all throughout the lore that cloning has been around for a long, long time.

One distinction that might be drawn in types of cloning is how well memories are kept. In the capsule rebirth, you remember everything up to the moment of death. A non-capsule rebirth might only restore the memories that were "backed up" during the last brain scan, or whatever. Or there may be ways to "transfer" memories even while out of pod, as is suggested in at least one chronicle.


That's what I was about to say, you can be cloned without a capsule, there is just a "memory loss" from the last scan. And guess what ? Every capsuleer that died at least once, has at least done one brain scan :p

Of course, usualy with non-capsule cloning if I remember well, these scans are non-destructive and slow.

Actually, according to the Eve Origins trailer every single capsuller has died at least once.
Sonkut
Rave Into Space
The-Expanse
#45 - 2013-08-16 13:36:01 UTC
The "empyrean age" Eve book has a pod pilot who kills himself outside of the pod over and over. This is a book published with the approval of CCP so i assume they read the content first and approved it.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-08-16 15:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
according to the Eve Origins trailer every single capsuller has died at least once.


Yep. they euthanize you into your first capsule clone. Presumably it's easier, safer and more reliable to build a viable clone around the piloting implants than to install the piloting implants in a living person, then just "pod" somebody into that clone.

It's effectively Jump-cloning... which is effectively travel-by-suicide. Capsuleers are weird sometimes.

Oh, and Sonkut: what the Broker did wasn't cloning like pod pilots or DUST mercs do it. He had multiple copies of himself runing around, all of which were expendable, and all of which streamed information about what they were seeing, hearing and doing back to his secret lair. If capsuleers are weird, the Broker was frak-nuts insane. And what he was doing was all kinds of illegal.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#47 - 2013-08-17 06:13:54 UTC
Rangh Ovaert wrote:
Scuzzy Logic wrote:

On the other hand, this just reinforces my idea that you never actually leave your pod, and that the station environment is nothing but a computer simulation. I mean it's been YEARS since I've had an agent come into my quarters, since CCP forgot to fix my damn door. In every station, no less. So ronery...Sad


Acutally never being able to leave the pod would be in my opinion the most radical and satisfying solution to this question. It would be the ultimate price you pay for being immortal.


Might as well be a brain in a jar with that scenario. Check out my gray matter avatar!

:)

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content
Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#48 - 2013-08-17 06:15:49 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
according to the Eve Origins trailer every single capsuller has died at least once.


Yep. they euthanize you into your first capsule clone. Presumably it's easier, safer and more reliable to build a viable clone around the piloting implants than to install the piloting implants in a living person, then just "pod" somebody into that clone.

It's effectively Jump-cloning... which is effectively travel-by-suicide. Capsuleers are weird sometimes.

Oh, and Sonkut: what the Broker did wasn't cloning like pod pilots or DUST mercs do it. He had multiple copies of himself runing around, all of which were expendable, and all of which streamed information about what they were seeing, hearing and doing back to his secret lair. If capsuleers are weird, the Broker was frak-nuts insane. And what he was doing was all kinds of illegal.


Even then the Broker was still dying, IIRC. He couldn't keep that up forever.

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content
Demica Diaz
SE-1
#49 - 2013-08-17 22:18:26 UTC
I think capsuler can die inside pod aswell, correct me if I am wrong. But lets say someone sabotage your clone you suppose to jump in after destruction of pod.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#50 - 2013-08-18 03:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Dobie Mercault wrote:
We know that there was cloning before capsules.
Therefore, presumably, there is very likely to still be cloning tech available outside of a capsule, even for a capsuleer.

Capsules are special because they're the combination of cloning and neural interfacing that allows a ship to be piloted more effectively.

It seems to be a common misconception that cloning is only as old as the capsule is, and that's what makes them special, but it's made repeatedly clear all throughout the lore that cloning has been around for a long, long time.

One distinction that might be drawn in types of cloning is how well memories are kept. In the capsule rebirth, you remember everything up to the moment of death. A non-capsule rebirth might only restore the memories that were "backed up" during the last brain scan, or whatever. Or there may be ways to "transfer" memories even while out of pod, as is suggested in at least one chronicle.


That's what I was about to say, you can be cloned without a capsule, there is just a "memory loss" from the last scan. And guess what ? Every capsuleer that died at least once, has at least done one brain scan :p

Of course, usualy with non-capsule cloning if I remember well, these scans are non-destructive and slow.

Actually, according to the Eve Origins trailer every single capsuller has died at least once.


Not every capsuleer.

Last time they considered adding this concept, they made the following clarification: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1519536&page=1#8

So both methods are possible in-universe, with implanting into the original body being the original method and euthanization+cloning being the new method.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-08-19 02:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Samira Kernher wrote:
*long multi-quote snip*

Not every capsuleer.

Last time they considered adding this concept, they made the following clarification: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1519536&page=1#8

So both methods are possible in-universe, with implanting into the original body being the original method and euthanization+cloning being the new method.

Yes, I stand corrected. As a matter of fact i now remember there was a discussion few months ago regarding this very trailer and a similar topic. And a link to the same old forum thread was given, and even more explanations were written, so yes, my apologies, every new capsuleer since Incarna has died at least once, so it still possible for some die-hard old vet to still retain his/her original body.

My apologies.
Orland Yormes
Hueromont Interstellar Exploration Inc.
#52 - 2013-09-01 06:03:57 UTC
Jake Agalder wrote:
The consensus seems to be that capsuleers are not immortal outside their capsules, but what about the Broker? In the empyrean age he kills himself several times outside of his capsule and yet he continues to be re-cloned. Yes he runs multiple copies of himself, but if his copies are just clones then how does he retain what was learned through his conversation with Tibus Heth after he kills himself at the foundry? If the DUST implants are not compatible with capsuleer implants then he cant have DUST implats because he pilots the capital ship into the Ishukone station.


Jump clones are remotly controlled bodies with implants to recieve and replicate what is going on in the brain of "main" clone so to speak. That is how the broker can jump between so many bodies without losing memory. The jump clones we use in game are similar, but we players arent able to use remotly controlled clones, would make the game to easy if we would be able to jump in to a clone without risk losing skillpoints if we hadnt upgrade it. And the timer we experience in game is probably a safety net set up so you dont go mad when switching between bodies to quickly which can be ignored by lore characters.
Matar Ronin
#53 - 2013-09-04 08:15:16 UTC
Orland Yormes wrote:
Jake Agalder wrote:
The consensus seems to be that capsuleers are not immortal outside their capsules, but what about the Broker? In the empyrean age he kills himself several times outside of his capsule and yet he continues to be re-cloned. Yes he runs multiple copies of himself, but if his copies are just clones then how does he retain what was learned through his conversation with Tibus Heth after he kills himself at the foundry? If the DUST implants are not compatible with capsuleer implants then he cant have DUST implats because he pilots the capital ship into the Ishukone station.


Jump clones are remotly controlled bodies with implants to recieve and replicate what is going on in the brain of "main" clone so to speak. That is how the broker can jump between so many bodies without losing memory. The jump clones we use in game are similar, but we players arent able to use remotly controlled clones, would make the game to easy if we would be able to jump in to a clone without risk losing skillpoints if we hadnt upgrade it. And the timer we experience in game is probably a safety net set up so you dont go mad when switching between bodies to quickly which can be ignored by lore characters.
I suspect that the "Broker" character changed the lore, obviously capuleers when killed outside of the capsule would trigger the animation of a new clone with the last uploaded memory burst from when the capsuleer left the capsule. Anything else seems inconsistent.

So as to the OP you are an immortal as long as you have clones that have survived.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-09-04 11:03:13 UTC
Orland Yormes wrote:
Jump clones are remotly controlled bodies with implants to recieve and replicate what is going on in the brain of "main" clone so to speak. That is how the broker can jump between so many bodies without losing memory. The jump clones we use in game are similar, but we players arent able to use remotly controlled clones, would make the game to easy if we would be able to jump in to a clone without risk losing skillpoints if we hadnt upgrade it. And the timer we experience in game is probably a safety net set up so you dont go mad when switching between bodies to quickly which can be ignored by lore characters.


No, we've been over this. The Broker was genuinely using multiple clones, and was keeping the "master" clone up to date with an archaic piece of technology known as a "microphone".


Interstellar FTL comms, the video feed from his clone's eyes, the audio feed from its ears, and between them that's enough for him to know the content of any conversation one of his operating clones may have had. Fluid router comms are impossible to intercept.

He didn't lose memory because he watched it happen. There doesn't need to be some big complex remote-control-body scheme involved when he could just do the equivalent of bugging his clones.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Matar Ronin
#55 - 2013-09-05 06:50:21 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
No, we've been over this. The Broker was genuinely using multiple clones, and was keeping the "master" clone up to date with an archaic piece of technology known as a "microphone".


Interstellar FTL comms, the video feed from his clone's eyes, the audio feed from its ears, and between them that's enough for him to know the content of any conversation one of his operating clones may have had. Fluid router comms are impossible to intercept.

He didn't lose memory because he watched it happen. There doesn't need to be some big complex remote-control-body scheme involved when he could just do the equivalent of bugging his clones.
Okay that covers the lack of lost information and it makes good sense as well. How did he trigger the reanimation of his "main" clone at the time of death of one of his in the field operating clones? I am still not clear on how the lore explained that precisely. Could you elaborate?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Orland Yormes
Hueromont Interstellar Exploration Inc.
#56 - 2013-09-05 12:06:50 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Orland Yormes wrote:
Jump clones are remotly controlled bodies with implants to recieve and replicate what is going on in the brain of "main" clone so to speak. That is how the broker can jump between so many bodies without losing memory. The jump clones we use in game are similar, but we players arent able to use remotly controlled clones, would make the game to easy if we would be able to jump in to a clone without risk losing skillpoints if we hadnt upgrade it. And the timer we experience in game is probably a safety net set up so you dont go mad when switching between bodies to quickly which can be ignored by lore characters.


No, we've been over this. The Broker was genuinely using multiple clones, and was keeping the "master" clone up to date with an archaic piece of technology known as a "microphone".


Interstellar FTL comms, the video feed from his clone's eyes, the audio feed from its ears, and between them that's enough for him to know the content of any conversation one of his operating clones may have had. Fluid router comms are impossible to intercept.

He didn't lose memory because he watched it happen. There doesn't need to be some big complex remote-control-body scheme involved when he could just do the equivalent of bugging his clones.



I get the impression of him being in control of the body at hand. I read the first book and the way he does it is really cool. Still complicated do you have any reference from a book that explains this?
CorsairV
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-09-12 21:42:56 UTC
Kourdus wrote:
If so, how?

or can someone just walk up to me in a station or planetside and shoot me in the face and kill me permanently?


Presumably by spending their time isolated in the captain's quarters so no one can shoot them in the back.
Matar Ronin
#58 - 2013-09-12 22:03:41 UTC
CorsairV wrote:
Kourdus wrote:
If so, how?

or can someone just walk up to me in a station or planetside and shoot me in the face and kill me permanently?


Presumably by spending their time isolated in the captain's quarters so no one can shoot them in the back.
So much for the myth of "Capsuleer" immortality.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-09-13 00:50:13 UTC
Orland Yormes wrote:
I get the impression of him being in control of the body at hand. I read the first book and the way he does it is really cool. Still complicated do you have any reference from a book that explains this?


Because he WAS in control of the body. He had two clones active at once, both with "Broker" mind-states in them. one stayed at home, the other went out on a mission and suicided, and broadcast footage back to the mission control clone who saw everything that happened.


AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#60 - 2013-09-20 15:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Guys, there's a prospect we're overlooking. It is entirely possible to reconfigure DUST implants (or a portion of) for capsuleer/baseliner use. Common sense would say you can use the brain spike remotely via DUST implant tech, letting your capsule upload everything remotely to your waiting clone from outside your capsule.

Just like DUST troops use a command center ship to redirect a merc clone's transfer of persona, so can hypothetically your ship docked in the station's hanger be used for the same purpose.

You'd be limited by two factors: range, and quality. Range being that you need to be in range of your ship must like a DUST merc needs to be in range of his command center ship. And quality being that you're uploading a LOT more data via those DUST implants to the capsule. Rapid use (such as the frequency of respawns in DUST for the typical merc) could very easily damage the higher SP/advanced grade persona you're trying to upload (hence why capsuleers can't do DUST work, the respawn timer would take days to even weeks [as mentioned in lore; all the side-effects of in-lore waking up in a new body + any kind of bumps/damage that might screw up the "wireless" transfer] to shrug off due to the type of brain you're working with). So don't go wandering off into the dark corners of a station just yet...

But this is what I recommend to people who want to baseline properly within the lore, who hate the whole lore-quoting godmodding attempts made by other players to make them vulnerable. Yet I also include, 'with power, comes responsibility' -make these moves to include the use of this tech only if you feel threatened by a godmodder, for you come off pretty much invincible to everyone else (and thus harder to relate to as an RPer).

There are a number of doors that can only be opened through being in a vulnerable state.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...