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Blue on blue attacks - Diana Kim, Pyre Falcon, The Republic, The Federation

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Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#221 - 2013-08-09 20:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Katarina Musana
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Katarina, you know I have nothing but affection for you personally, but you really ought to either say that you were wrong when you spoke harshly of us in the first place or 'fess up to doing exactly the same as we were doing. You and I both know that in BOTH warzones about half the targets are pirates and the half that are militia are half spineless profiteering farmer.

You aren't fighting 'squids' you're fighting Snigwaffe.


In Black Rise, yeah, I'm fighting more pirates than anything else. The same was not true back in my warzone, where I'd get kill after kill on squids and rarely see a pirate except in a couple systems, and actual Marries were even more rare than the pirates of late.

To be fair, though, I was referring to when fighting enemy militia as I felt the presence of pirates and the shooting of pirates was fairly obvious and not really relevant.

Quote:
1. The plight of your people would get more sympathy if you let people hit you back when you agressed them without going ON and ON about them being 'filthy slavers'. Slavery is illegal in the State. We don't take slaves. We don't own slaves. If you're going to waffle on about a butterfly flapping it's wings on Saisio VI causing a baby Sebiestor to cry somewhere in the Empire then I'm here to tell you that it wastes your breath and makes me switch off.


You were explicitly plexing, increasing Amarr influence in Republic systems so that the Amarr could capture or hold those systems, directly allowing them the opportunity to enslave more Matari. That is not something I will simply let slide with an excuse like "Well, we weren't taking them as our slaves." People are responsible for the results of their actions, Pieter.

Quote:
2. We assisted by moving to the homeland of the TLF (who were making the FDU's wins possible) and making some noise. We stayed there until the situation changed and then moved straight back to Enaluri.


I don't, and never did, have a problem with this from a purely tactical and strategic standpoint. It's the other factors that I had a problem with, especially the direct enabling of the enslavement of more of our people.

Quote:
3. I took part in EVERY significant exchange of Heth's downfall. Don't you dare cheapen the deaths of the crew I lost in them by suggesting we cherry-picked our fights.


To be honest, my vehemence on this matter was more than a little exaggerated as I was hoping I could appeal to your sense of duty and patriotism as Caldari to convince you that it was more important to be in the State than in our warzone. What was really upsetting me most about your presence was the slavery issue, but non-Matari are quick to write such complaints off as simply "playing the victim," regardless of the legitimacy of the complaint.

Quote:
4. The Republic allied with our hereditary enemies - the agressors in our particular conflict. This forced us to ally with the Empire - when left to it's own devices the State is very Isolationist. Given that situation you're more or less left without a moral leg to stand on when it comes to bitching about us supporting the allies that YOUR foreign policy MADE us take. You know damn well that the State's preferred position would be allied to none and trading with all.


And you know damn well that we had virtually no choice in who we allied with, and acting unnecessarily against the Republic does nothing to help the State attain their preferred position as it only drives a further wedge between the Republic and State, pushing away from "enemies by circumstance" into actual, full-blown enemies.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#222 - 2013-08-09 21:10:22 UTC
Pieter Tuuinen wrote:
2. Our citizens in Black Rise who labour under the opression of the Federation would disagree.


Nothing the Federation does compares to the enslavement the Amarrians enforce. Why do you think so many of our people have put up with the Federation's attitude for so long? Because it's still a damn sight better than being slaves.

Quote:
3. Which is it? Visiting friends or assisting the Gallente to capture systems? You do know that Pyre never actually assisted with plex taking or ihub bashing, right? We certainly told your diplomat that when she raged at us for doing less for our allies than you're doing for yours right now. And yet you still see yourself as 'ahead on the moral compass'.


I can't do both? Visit friends and assist the Gallente? And I don't think it's possible for me to capture, or assist in the capture of, Ichoriya.

And, seriously, Pieter, don't give me that bullshit about not plexing. The first time I ever encountered Pyre in our warzone, it was one of your pilots plexing in Brin, a fellow by the name of Teqq Cruiser, and he's not the only Pyre pilot we caught counting down plexes.

Not to mention all the other squids regularly plexing in our warzone lately, though I can't hold you specifically responsible for them.

Quote:
But see, here's the difference between us, Katarina. You're an enemy proclaimed of my people, so I don't blame you for acting like one. The only thing I judge you on are the differences between your words and your actions and, right now, your words criticise me and mine for doing precisely what you're doing - so are we ALL heartless profiters from the ruin of the innocent or are we both just soldiers in a cause we believe in?


I'm sorry you misunderstood my criticism, Pieter, but it was not about your strategy so much as the fact you were directly and/or indirectly assisting in the enslavement of my people by the Amarr, as well as the lies being told by your alliance leadership, such as the claim of "never plexing" when we repeatedly found evidence to the contrary.

Though, I will also admit that the idea of fighting Caldari was bothersome to me when I first joined the militia and certainly influenced my frustration with the whole scenario. The huge presence of squids in our warzone, however, has cured me of that, however. But that bit is more a case of changing my mind than being a hypocrite, something some people seem incapable of recognizing.
Karmilla Strife
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#223 - 2013-08-09 21:21:51 UTC
You haven't convinced anyone of your position Musana. Clearly you should post more.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#224 - 2013-08-09 22:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
That's an awful lot of words Ms. Musana that can be negated by the simple fact that the Pyre Falcon Defence Combine owes no obligations to the Minmatar Republic or its people in the prosecution of current armed conflict. Recognition of that fact would have no doubt spared you much outrage and hypocrisy displayed here in public.

If you have failed to notice, there has not been expressed any notions of foul play on the part of Pyre Falcon that TLF military contractors can and will conduct operations in State territory. What is being pointed out is that it is the height of hypocrisy to cry foul if such is reciprocated by units fighting on behalf of the State because of an inbred sense of privilege on the part of Matari that everyone else in the cluster must subvert the pursuit of their own interests because the Minmatar had the special and unique status of once having been enslaved by the Amarr Empire.

Trying to elicit moral sympathy by playing the slavery card to justify anything at all the Republic might do may work with the naive or foolish, but it does not work with me because the welfare of the Minmatar people is not my primary concern: The defense of my fellow citizens and ensuring the territorial integrity of State borders however is. As such I'm more than willing to take the fight to the Republic and render military assistance to the Empire if I feel that in doing so is in the interests of the State and my shareholders. I certainly will shed no tears nor lose any sleep if a million Matari are enslaved in the Empire if it means a single State citizen will remain free from foreign subjugation.

If you want to moan diligently about that fact, then feel free Ms. Musana for it will no doubt provide me a few moments amusement. Not so much amusement as the thought that the State needs a political or military ally such as a Minmatar Republic that has a proven track record in violating their own treaty obligations at Yulai, Mekhios and Colelie and whose political leadership is so inept as to manage the slow destruction of goodwill in the Federation through acts of government-sanctioned murder and terrorism while continuing hostilities against the Empire and State.

Then again if you are any example of the leadership of the Minmatar Republic, Ms. Musana, then I suppose gross ineptitude in thought and action really should come as no surprise.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#225 - 2013-08-09 22:59:33 UTC
Duty often means that we have to perform tasks that make us uncomfortable. That's a truth for everyone at every level of a career - from the merely physical distaste of labour in filthy conditions to the ethical distaste of supporting slavery indirectly because it is the best thing for my people.

Verin Hakatain-haan will have us believe that stepping away from the Empire would bring an end to the threat posed by the Matari against the State, thus rendering our alliance with the Empire unnecessary - but your argument reveals the fallacy of that opinion. The Republic allied with the Federation against the Empire. The Republic is more than willing to war on the State to preserve that necessary alliance. If the State ceased to support it's ally, then it would be without aid in it's life or death struggle against an implacable foe.

I'm afraid we have to accept that, as much as we can have admiration for Matari culture and individual Matari, we remain the enemy of the Republic - with everything that entails. I hope that, conversely, you can understand that what you see as our support for slavery is nothing more than self-defence of our OWN liberty from an enslavement that we would find just as vile.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#226 - 2013-08-10 22:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Verin Hakatain-haan will have us believe that stepping away from the Empire would bring an end to the threat posed by the Matari against the State, thus rendering our alliance with the Empire unnecessary - but your argument reveals the fallacy of that opinion.


Come on suuolo: I think you know better than to so badly misrepresent a man's position like that. I can only assume that I have failed to properly communicate my thoughts, and that I have confused you. I am sorry.

You have the sequence I'm envisioning backwards: I'm not suggesting that suddenly giving the Amarrians the cold shoulder will suddenly and automagically make the Minmatar our bestest best friends forever- I'm suggesting that we should make friends with the Minmatar so that once we have a solid relationship with them we CAN give the Amarr the cold shoulder.

I recommend this course of action as being in the long-term best interests of the Caldari people.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#227 - 2013-08-10 23:28:34 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Verin Hakatain-haan will have us believe that stepping away from the Empire would bring an end to the threat posed by the Matari against the State, thus rendering our alliance with the Empire unnecessary - but your argument reveals the fallacy of that opinion.


Come on suuolo: I think you know better than to so badly misrepresent a man's position like that. I can only assume that I have failed to properly communicate my thoughts, and that I have confused you. I am sorry.

You have the sequence I'm envisioning backwards: I'm not suggesting that suddenly giving the Amarrians the cold shoulder will suddenly and automagically make the Minmatar our bestest best friends forever- I'm suggesting that we should make friends with the Minmatar so that once we have a solid relationship with them we CAN give the Amarr the cold shoulder.

I recommend this course of action as being in the long-term best interests of the Caldari people.


I've been reading a lot of political thought over the last few weeks, what with the arguments about Heth and Colelie, and frankly, I'm beginning to conclude that everybody would be happier if there were no alliances at all. Just four independent groups doing their own thing. Tensions between the Federation and the Republic are rising, both the Republic and State are naturally xenophobic, isolationist entities, and all the alliances present are ones of convenience.

Doesn't mean we have to all be enemies, or that we can't be trading partners and casual friends or whatever, but there's such a colossal cultural divide between the four great nations that the grand alliances are likely to disintegrate the moment they're no longer needed.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#228 - 2013-08-10 23:41:10 UTC
You may well be right. But, we work with the universe we have, and in this one nations without allies end up kidnapping people via some holofilm-villain strategy involving wormholes, nanites, and megalomania.

Or, if they're lucky, just going out of business.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#229 - 2013-08-11 01:08:51 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

Come on suuolo: I think you know better than to so badly misrepresent a man's position like that. I can only assume that I have failed to properly communicate my thoughts, and that I have confused you. I am sorry.

You have the sequence I'm envisioning backwards: I'm not suggesting that suddenly giving the Amarrians the cold shoulder will suddenly and automagically make the Minmatar our bestest best friends forever- I'm suggesting that we should make friends with the Minmatar so that once we have a solid relationship with them we CAN give the Amarr the cold shoulder.

I recommend this course of action as being in the long-term best interests of the Caldari people.


Well... That makes more sense.

But since they won't stop attacking so long as we're allied with the Empire - how do we move onward? At this moment, Gradient, part of the Electus Matari alliance, is involved in frequent patrols and plexxing around the fortress system of Enaluri. And since everything always gets couched in the highly emotive terms of slavery, what stops what should be simply a case of each of us doing our duty turning into something more bitter?

I am not optimistic, suuolo.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#230 - 2013-08-11 01:50:13 UTC
Worthwhile goals are rarely easy.

They're made infinitely more difficult if we allow lack of optimism to defeat the effort before it is even made, hido?

(autoTRANS: "Hido" - Napanii. "yes or no?" / "is that not so?" / "correct?")

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#231 - 2013-08-11 05:22:28 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Well... That makes more sense.

But since they won't stop attacking so long as we're allied with the Empire - how do we move onward? At this moment, Gradient, part of the Electus Matari alliance, is involved in frequent patrols and plexxing around the fortress system of Enaluri. And since everything always gets couched in the highly emotive terms of slavery, what stops what should be simply a case of each of us doing our duty turning into something more bitter?

I am not optimistic, suuolo.

All enemies of the State shall die.
If this alliance attacks systems or assets of the State, this alliance must be disposed of.
As for other matari, shall they choose to attack the Federation, we could make temp blue alliances with them. If we keep our allies from the Empire and Republic in the war against the Federation separated from each other, we can concentrate our efforts on defeating the Federation.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#232 - 2013-08-11 05:34:35 UTC
12 Pages now?

This reminds me of some of the more colorful Star Fraction 'debates' regarding who shot who when for what reason and which rule of engagement.

Pathetic.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#233 - 2013-08-12 06:55:38 UTC
We can't very well abandon an alliance that's vital to the security of the State, simply because we find some of our Ally's social policies to be not to our tastes. Neither can we avoid performing actions vital to the well-being of that alliance in case we offend the Republic - which has sided with our ancient enemy and declared war on us!

You know how often systems flip in the warzone - why do you have heavily populated planets there? Relocate those people! It's not like the Republic didn't sign the CEWPA along with the other Empires - for better or for worse. By now there's been enough time to repurpose those colonies to simple resource generators, perhaps even industrial processors.

Anyway. I'm sure your government has thought this over. Here's the thing though, as I understood it, taking slaves from the civilian population of the warzone is illegal, isn't it? In both the Kingdom and the Empire. Isn't that right? Now, I'm not sure if Prisoners of War count as Criminals in the Empire - although I don't see how that could be legal, since Prisoners of War are supposed to be available for repatriation, aren't they - but even if they are, loitering in a military complex in order to lure enemy forces in after you is hardly equivalent to slaving innocent Matari. Security forces ought to be evacuated when the system become vulnerable - even demobilising them would make them citizens and therefore protect them from slavery, no?

In any case. The war is legal. Your government declared war on ours and signed the Act that defines legal methods of making war. So long as we act within those and you act within those, neither of our organisations has the right to raise legitimate complaint, right?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#234 - 2013-08-12 10:35:19 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Verin Hakatain-haan will have us believe that stepping away from the Empire would bring an end to the threat posed by the Matari against the State, thus rendering our alliance with the Empire unnecessary - but your argument reveals the fallacy of that opinion.


Come on suuolo: I think you know better than to so badly misrepresent a man's position like that. I can only assume that I have failed to properly communicate my thoughts, and that I have confused you. I am sorry.

You have the sequence I'm envisioning backwards: I'm not suggesting that suddenly giving the Amarrians the cold shoulder will suddenly and automagically make the Minmatar our bestest best friends forever- I'm suggesting that we should make friends with the Minmatar so that once we have a solid relationship with them we CAN give the Amarr the cold shoulder.

I recommend this course of action as being in the long-term best interests of the Caldari people.


That is a risky position to do so considering the recent events at Colelie.

Relationships between the Empire and the Federation have been made in the past, and I do not see why they could not happen again under pressure. Historically, it has always been either that (Girani Fa) or idealism (Yulai).
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#235 - 2013-08-12 10:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Anyway. I'm sure your government has thought this over. Here's the thing though, as I understood it, taking slaves from the civilian population of the warzone is illegal, isn't it? In both the Kingdom and the Empire. Isn't that right? Now, I'm not sure if Prisoners of War count as Criminals in the Empire - although I don't see how that could be legal, since Prisoners of War are supposed to be available for repatriation, aren't they - but even if they are, loitering in a military complex in order to lure enemy forces in after you is hardly equivalent to slaving innocent Matari. Security forces ought to be evacuated when the system become vulnerable - even demobilising them would make them citizens and therefore protect them from slavery, no?


Hardline Reclaiming is "legal" as far as I remember in the frame of the CEWPA areas.

Also it is still possible to exchange a slave against a POW as long as the slave has not yet been sold to any Holder, or put under his care. And if it is the case, it then fall into the realm of amarrian bureaucracy and negotiation with the Holder in question.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#236 - 2013-08-12 12:37:19 UTC
Speaking about slaves and prisoners of war, recently I have found a couple (or maybe a bit more than a couple) of Electus Matari ships, attacking State systems.

Well, I couldn't let crew to die in wrecks, and couldn't dispose of them like I do with gallentean crews, who were too unfortunate to meet me. So I have salvaged and transferred them to authority in the Empire for the proper justice.

They were definitely not happy about that. I would like to note, that I have transferred them as POWs, because I am, as a Caldari citizen, can't take slaves. But I guess their destiny is slavery in the Empire. Actually I don't know what will happen to them next, and it is not my business, really. I know only that if I were in such situation, I would better kill myself instead of getting into enemy's hands. But, meh, they are matari after all, they are used to be slaves...

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2013-08-12 15:55:31 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Relationships between the Empire and the Federation have been made in the past, and I do not see why they could not happen again under pressure. Historically, it has always been either that (Girani Fa) or idealism (Yulai).


You make a fair point, pilot Farel. Much as the Federation and the Empire have distrusted one another over the years, we both do know how to negotiate, and neither of us break our treaties.

Fair warning, though. We have been called insidious and disturbing...

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#238 - 2013-08-12 16:52:17 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Relationships between the Empire and the Federation have been made in the past, and I do not see why they could not happen again under pressure. Historically, it has always been either that (Girani Fa) or idealism (Yulai).


You make a fair point, pilot Farel. Much as the Federation and the Empire have distrusted one another over the years, we both do know how to negotiate, and neither of us break our treaties.

Fair warning, though. We have been called insidious and disturbing...


Scaaaary Shocked
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#239 - 2013-08-12 16:58:22 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Relationships between the Empire and the Federation have been made in the past, and I do not see why they could not happen again under pressure. Historically, it has always been either that (Girani Fa) or idealism (Yulai).


You make a fair point, pilot Farel. Much as the Federation and the Empire have distrusted one another over the years, we both do know how to negotiate, and neither of us break our treaties.

Fair warning, though. We have been called insidious and disturbing...


Scaaaary Shocked


If you want scary, try imagining what's under an old Amarrian's robes.

There's plenty of jokes wriggling about along those lines just waiting to be uncovered.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#240 - 2013-08-12 17:09:00 UTC
Don't ever use the word "wriggling" to describe the concept of what may lie under an old Amarrian's robes again.


Thank you.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.