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ECM: OP or not, it does not belong.

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-07-26 20:01:19 UTC
It's not something I've given loads of thought - more that I know/recognise the gap.

I'm sure CCP can work some Jedi-hand wavy magic - 'manual tracking' perhaps, rudimentary 'guided' shells, shrapnel in the general vicinity - something suitably explanatory and fluffy but with stats you'd want to use it as a last resort. I can't see a way it could work differently to the FoF missiles - but perhaps that can be altered at the same time.

I don't see why only launchers should have the luxury of FoF (however crappy they are).

I like the idea that you have an ammo option, rather than a fitting option - and it helps against unbonused hulls using various ewars.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#102 - 2013-07-26 22:13:11 UTC
Cordo Draken wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Other EWar are debuffs, ECM completely locks you out from doing ANYTHING.

In case you are being serious, know you still can:

  • fly away
  • repair armor / boost shields
  • fire FoF missiles
  • launch drones
  • fire smartbombs
  • turn on a Target Lock Breaker
  • turn on ECCM
  • complain about it


Oh and make sure you just ignore this guy.

He has never PVPed before and has no clue what hes talking about most of the time.


Dude, have you ever considered that Whitehound is just an Alt... Most like from a dude who's played from the beginning? And/or has waaaay more experience than you? You continue to amaze me with your utter lack of intellect.

Morrigan LeSante,
I actually like the FoF Ammo idea... But how do you propose it would work for guns? The FoF missiles is a very unclear device... Does it go after the closest target? Largest sig? What determines how it tracks? After that, how then does gun ammo go FoF? As that ammo does have it's own propulsion, nor it's own guidance system. The only thing would to be able to Manually control your gun turrets. Oh wait, where have I heard that before?

At any rate, please elaborate on your FoF ammo idea.


No, hes not an alt. Because only carebears and "pvpers" that hug hi-sec believe that ECM is okay and suggest horrible ideas. They have one thing in common, they are both clueless.

The best and most experienced PvPers in the game all agree: ECM needs to be fixed. I'm going to take their word over a buncha wannabes any day.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2013-07-26 22:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
Muad 'dib wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.


does a ecm NEED to perma jam 4 ships and have no tank?

the argument there is moot, if you didnt try and perma jam everything to stop dieing you could jam them all half the time and fit a tank, no?

In a game where you can be alphaed, 20 seconds while jammed and useless MAKES PEOPLE QUIT. im gunna quit im 'gunna deal with it' but people do quit - reason? - it is not fun and i see why they leave, this is a game, losing a ship is one thing, it dieing without a fight - sucks.

lots of qq there
maybe grow some balls and try to l2pvp, it seems an experiecne issue for u that u cant counter jammer ships
if they are such a huge threat why dont u counter them? ah i get it easier to whine and ask ccp to make ecm useless

maybe you should quit^^

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17681437
instead of having 2 mwd-s an eccm maybe would have helped you :D
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-07-26 23:49:49 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.


does a ecm NEED to perma jam 4 ships and have no tank?

the argument there is moot, if you didnt try and perma jam everything to stop dieing you could jam them all half the time and fit a tank, no?

In a game where you can be alphaed, 20 seconds while jammed and useless MAKES PEOPLE QUIT. im gunna quit im 'gunna deal with it' but people do quit - reason? - it is not fun and i see why they leave, this is a game, losing a ship is one thing, it dieing without a fight - sucks.

lots of qq there
maybe grow some balls and try to l2pvp, it seems an experiecne issue for u that u cant counter jammer ships
if they are such a huge threat why dont u counter them? ah i get it easier to whine and ask ccp to make ecm useless

maybe you should quit^^

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17681437
instead of having 2 mwd-s an eccm maybe would have helped you :D


Post with your main. Nobody cares what some unknown alt has to say.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#105 - 2013-07-27 01:54:52 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17681437
instead of having 2 mwd-s an eccm maybe would have helped you :D


I don't even pretend to know why he had two MWDs fit.

I do know that an ECCM module wouldn't have done **** to help him, and you know it, too.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#106 - 2013-07-27 04:21:38 UTC
Meditril wrote:
The main problem with ECM is its very long cycle time of 20 seconds. This is longer than some fights and therefore overpowered. In my opinion ECM cycle time should be reduced to 5 seconds while also reducing cap usage to 1/4. This would make ECM more smooth. If the enemy get a hit on you than at least after 5 seconds you have another chance to lock him up if he fails his cycle and maybe do some damage before he gets the next lucky hit.


I love people like you. You make this so easy.

Do you really want a jam check to be made every 5 seconds? How long does it take to lock your target?

Since clearly you do not understand jamming mechanics, I will explain. I'm feeling generous.

JAmming does not check to see if you succeed, it checks to see if you fail. For every attempt you make, the probability of missing is reduced by the ratio of your jam strength over the targeted ship's sensor strength. So say a Rook or falcon with jam strength of 12 tries to jam a ship of sensor strength 24. Each individual check has a 50% chance to fail.

Your next check will have the same chance to fail. But by your change, that check will be made onily 5 seconds later. In that same 20 seconds as the current mechanics, you would be checked 4 times, thus your chances of escaping a jam would be (12/50)^4, or 6.25%. The inverse being a 93.75% chance ot get jammed at least once in those 4 cycles.

Can you imagine how annoying that would be? Start locking, few seconds later get jammed. Not jammed, start locking, derp. Jammed again 10 seconds later.

Now couple that with Remote Sensor Dampenors with scan resolution dampening scripts that can increase the locking time of your favorite HAC to 30 seconds versus a battleship. Pairs of blackbirds and celestes would make it completely impossible for you to ever lock anything.

Trust me. The current mechanics are just about right. Rook needs an ECM range boost imo. 200km locking range and only 100km optimal+falloff for ECM. Why lock so far when nothing it is designed to fit can utilize that range?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-07-27 06:14:33 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:


Post with your main. Nobody cares what some unknown alt has to say.

wait a minute , so you want to say us that this is your main char?:O
then what experience are you talking about?
Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#108 - 2013-07-27 06:17:19 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Ugly is when you get backstabbed by a friend who takes everything you own.

This is pretty much what ECM does. One minute you have fun fighting someone and then he backstabs you with a Falcon and takes your ship.


or 5.dont ask,it happened.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-07-27 06:20:03 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17681437
instead of having 2 mwd-s an eccm maybe would have helped you :D


I don't even pretend to know why he had two MWDs fit.

I do know that an ECCM module wouldn't have done **** to help him, and you know it, too.

Wasn't there a guy who was dumpstered a couple times in his Brutix with max info bonus Proteus alt and two overloaded ECCM modules and he was still jammed by some light drones? Or the enemy got away cause he was jammed or something. Ugh
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2013-07-27 06:26:46 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:


http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17681437
instead of having 2 mwd-s an eccm maybe would have helped you :D


I don't even pretend to know why he had two MWDs fit.

I do know that an ECCM module wouldn't have done **** to help him, and you know it, too.

Wasn't there a guy who was dumpstered a couple times in his Brutix with max info bonus Proteus alt and two overloaded ECCM modules and he was still jammed by some light drones? Or the enemy got away cause he was jammed or something. Ugh

probably there was ,cause it is chance based so still have a small chance to jamm even vs that much sensor strength , on the other side i had plenty of times when all of my jammers failed ,probability of such thing was less than 3-4% still happened, nearly lost my falcon :P
Ranafal
Doomheim
#111 - 2013-07-27 06:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranafal
Most of whine about ECM is produced by people, who prefer frigate-size hulls - because Frigates have very low sensor strength, thus one Falcon can easily keep in permajam 4 Dramiels.

People who fly in BS gangs, even small gangs of ~10 ships, just don't notice ECM, because if there is a Falcon in enemy gang - all that it can do, is turn off a SINGLE battleship (out of 10) for 20 seconds, and immediately die from fire of 9 other battleships then.

That's why somebody (those who prefer Frigate size) thinks that ECM is overpowered, while other people (who fly BS and fight BS) thik that ECM is overnerfed.

The real solution would be make ECM in the same way as guns - i.e. introduce ECM modules of three sizes - frig-sise, cruiser-size, and BS-size. Give them signature resolution charactersitic and add a strong penalty to jam probability if sigres of ECM module is larger than target sig, give them corresponding PG/CPU requirements, and cap usage. And adjust optimal range, for example 5km for frig-size ECM, 10km for cruiser-size ECM, and 20km for BS-size ECM.

Falcon will be able to jam cruiser-size good. It will still be weak against BS because of BS sensor strength. It will be weak against frigates because of sigres/sig, so a pair of dramiels will kill it, because it will not be able to keep both in permajam.

In firgate-size fights, only electronic attack ships will be able to put jam on an enemy frig with acceptable probability. But EAF has less MED slots, less bonuces, much less EHP, less optimal range. And it will be killed by a pair of assaults easily.
But a pair of EAF will still be able to make troubles for a pair of frigate-size damagers. Balance?
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#112 - 2013-07-27 07:32:34 UTC
What's this dribble about ECM ships being unable to fit a decent tank? Rooks, Falcons, and Blackbirds are all fully capable of getting a 25k+ EHP tank while fitting 4 jammers and at least one signal distortion amp, which is commensurate with comparable ships. If you think you need to dedicate every possible slot on your ship to jam strength, that's a problem with your expectations.
---
ECM's overall power level is irrelevant. Save-or-suck mechanics are indefensibly bad because they undermine player agency and without that, there isn't much point in playing. EVE, with its infinitely brilliant design, has given you a single alternative to making a sandwich while you wait to see what happens to your character, but you're still better off getting the sandwich.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#113 - 2013-07-27 10:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Muad 'dib wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.


does a ecm NEED to perma jam 4 ships and have no tank?

the argument there is moot, if you didnt try and perma jam everything to stop dieing you could jam them all half the time and fit a tank, no?

In a game where you can be alphaed, 20 seconds while jammed and useless MAKES PEOPLE QUIT. im gunna quit im 'gunna deal with it' but people do quit - reason? - it is not fun and i see why they leave, this is a game, losing a ship is one thing, it dieing without a fight - sucks.


There are plenty of ways to die in eve without a fight, are you suggesting that they are all unfair, the other day my frig got toasted by a loki in a one man insta lock gate camp. I mean he had me target locked and in my pod in less than a second, luckily pods instawarp so I got away with just losing the ship. Are you also saying this is unfair? What about gatecamps in general or bubbles or being alpha'd from 75km.

Anyhow there are plenty of counters to ECM, I always find that the people who complain about ECM are the one's that don't really understand how it works. Once you've understood it it's not the big threat you expect it to be. Next time you go on a roam you can always take some cheap disposable Griffins with you to even things out or to very cheaply force multiply your efforts, blackbirds are pretty much gimped these days and need to fill all of their mid slots with racial jammers in lieu of tank because unless you know exactly who you are up against it's not possible to guarantee who you won't run into and what ships they won't also be flying.

Oh yes there's also skills you can train that will harden your resistances to ewar as well as eccm mods. The only for of ewar that truly has no counter is the target painter.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-07-27 10:41:04 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.


does a ecm NEED to perma jam 4 ships and have no tank?

the argument there is moot, if you didnt try and perma jam everything to stop dieing you could jam them all half the time and fit a tank, no?

In a game where you can be alphaed, 20 seconds while jammed and useless MAKES PEOPLE QUIT. im gunna quit im 'gunna deal with it' but people do quit - reason? - it is not fun and i see why they leave, this is a game, losing a ship is one thing, it dieing without a fight - sucks.


There are plenty of ways to die in eve without a fight, are you suggesting that they are all unfair, the other day my frig got toasted by a loki in a one man insta lock gate camp. I mean he had me target locked and in my pod in less than a second, luckily pods instawarp so I got away with just losing the ship. Are you also saying this is unfair? What about gatecamps in general or bubbles or being alpha'd from 75km.

Anyhow there are plenty of counters to ECM, I always find that the people who complain about ECM are the one's that don't really understand how it works. Once you've understood it it's not the big threat you expect it to be. Next time you go on a roam you can always take some cheap disposable Griffins with you to even things out or to very cheaply force multiply your efforts, blackbirds are pretty much gimped these days and need to fill all of their mid slots with racial jammers in lieu of tank because unless you know exactly who you are up against it's not possible to guarantee who you won't run into and what ships they won't also be flying.

Oh yes there's also skills you can train that will harden your resistances to ewar as well as eccm mods. The only for of ewar that truly has no counter is the target painter.


That gate camp blew you away because the player had enough alpha and lock speed to kill you very quickly. That is just math.

When ECM comes into play it is somebody taking a die, throwing it, and if you get unlucky you get owned. That is luck.

We plenty understand how ECM works, we don't care if it is weak or has many counters. A mechanic that is so Luck dependent is not wanted in a game that works so well with math.
Whitehound
#115 - 2013-07-27 11:27:01 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
We plenty understand how ECM works, we don't care if it is weak or has many counters. A mechanic that is so Luck dependent is not wanted in a game that works so well with math.

What about the wrecking hits? They too are completely luck dependent. Are they causing you a problem, too, and need to be removed?

What about solar systems? The number of players is also luck dependent. Do you want to set the number of allowed players to a fixed 4, 6, 8, ..., and make players wait before jumping into a system until enough players have been found?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-07-27 11:38:23 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
We plenty understand how ECM works, we don't care if it is weak or has many counters. A mechanic that is so Luck dependent is not wanted in a game that works so well with math.

What about the wrecking hits? They too are completely luck dependent. Are they causing you a problem, too, and need to be removed?

What about solar systems? The number of players is also luck dependent. Do you want to set the number of allowed players to a fixed 4, 6, 8, ..., and make players wait before jumping into a system until enough players have been found?


Wrecking hits are luck dependent, but they are hardly the same thing as ECM.
You have a chance to get a wrecking hit and it can help, yes. But it is not comparable to ECM where the entire mechanic is a complete binary outcome. Theres no real comparison really.

So I guess it is just luck that Jita is the most populated system everyday.
Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2013-07-27 12:08:08 UTC
Ranafal wrote:
Most of whine about ECM is produced by people, who prefer frigate-size hulls - because Frigates have very low sensor strength, thus one Falcon can easily keep in permajam 4 Dramiels.

People who fly in BS gangs, even small gangs of ~10 ships, just don't notice ECM, because if there is a Falcon in enemy gang - all that it can do, is turn off a SINGLE battleship (out of 10) for 20 seconds, and immediately die from fire of 9 other battleships then.

That's why somebody (those who prefer Frigate size) thinks that ECM is overpowered, while other people (who fly BS and fight BS) thik that ECM is overnerfed.

The real solution would be make ECM in the same way as guns - i.e. introduce ECM modules of three sizes - frig-sise, cruiser-size, and BS-size. Give them signature resolution charactersitic and add a strong penalty to jam probability if sigres of ECM module is larger than target sig, give them corresponding PG/CPU requirements, and cap usage. And adjust optimal range, for example 5km for frig-size ECM, 10km for cruiser-size ECM, and 20km for BS-size ECM.

Falcon will be able to jam cruiser-size good. It will still be weak against BS because of BS sensor strength. It will be weak against frigates because of sigres/sig, so a pair of dramiels will kill it, because it will not be able to keep both in permajam.

In firgate-size fights, only electronic attack ships will be able to put jam on an enemy frig with acceptable probability. But EAF has less MED slots, less bonuces, much less EHP, less optimal range. And it will be killed by a pair of assaults easily.
But a pair of EAF will still be able to make troubles for a pair of frigate-size damagers. Balance?


Wow, that's... actually a very reasonable solution.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-07-27 12:10:06 UTC
Still has the luck driven crap that nobody likes.
Whitehound
#119 - 2013-07-27 12:14:43 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Wrecking hits are luck dependent, but they are hardly the same thing as ECM.
You have a chance to get a wrecking hit and it can help, yes. But it is not comparable to ECM where the entire mechanic is a complete binary outcome. Theres no real comparison really.

So I guess it is just luck that Jita is the most populated system everyday.

Sure it is comparable. You said your problem is with luck, and both are based on luck, which is why I am comparing them.

That Jita is the biggest market hub has got its reasons, but it could have been any other system. Other games are far more predictable, much less complicated and with more players. Might just be EVE is not your game and you prefer a game of chess instead.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-07-27 12:25:26 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Wrecking hits are luck dependent, but they are hardly the same thing as ECM.
You have a chance to get a wrecking hit and it can help, yes. But it is not comparable to ECM where the entire mechanic is a complete binary outcome. Theres no real comparison really.

So I guess it is just luck that Jita is the most populated system everyday.

Sure it is comparable. You said your problem is with luck, and both are based on luck, which is why I am comparing them.

That Jita is the biggest market hub has got its reasons, but it could have been any other system. Other games are far more predictable, much less complicated and with more players. Might just be EVE is not your game and you prefer a game of chess instead.


Blah blah blah.

Still, the only argument you've managed to pull up is wrecking shots are luck based too. Weak. Moving on.