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ECM: OP or not, it does not belong.

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#201 - 2013-07-28 16:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Diesel47 wrote:
Delarian Rox wrote:
The only thing that looks wierd, is that ECM have 20 sec duration no matter which shiptype jammed.
BS can easily live through cycle or two and they typicaly also have slots to fit ECCM.
On the other hand, you need only about 400 dps to kill almost any frigate while he's jammed. They have weakest sensors in game so they are almost permajammed and lack of slots and resourses denies them from fitting ECCM. Possible solution for that is ECM cycle reduction for frigates and maybe destroyers so they can be some sort of counter to ecm ships. Or maybe ECCM module bonus should be +X to sensor strength instead of +X%.


Yet another problem with ECM. Straight



It's also measurably harder to jam a BS at all, other EWAR doesnt suffer for this.

Swings & roundabouts my friend Blink
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#202 - 2013-07-28 16:19:56 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Delarian Rox wrote:
The only thing that looks wierd, is that ECM have 20 sec duration no matter which shiptype jammed.
BS can easily live through cycle or two and they typicaly also have slots to fit ECCM.
On the other hand, you need only about 400 dps to kill almost any frigate while he's jammed. They have weakest sensors in game so they are almost permajammed and lack of slots and resourses denies them from fitting ECCM. Possible solution for that is ECM cycle reduction for frigates and maybe destroyers so they can be some sort of counter to ecm ships. Or maybe ECCM module bonus should be +X to sensor strength instead of +X%.


Yet another problem with ECM. Straight



It' also measurably harder to jam a BS at all, other EWAR doesnt suffer for this.

Swings & roundabouts my friend Blink


Its a bit harder but it isn't impossible.

And its harder to neut out a battleship than a frig.

And its harder to reduce the lock range of a battleship compared to a frig, they lock further.

Whats your point?

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#203 - 2013-07-28 16:27:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Its far easier to screw with the tracking, or their resolution.

The point is simple - you cant just stack up all the postives of ECM and present it as a broken mechanic whilst not mentioning its negatives or the fact other EWAR is similar in terms of advantage/disadvantage.


Why not try and find something that replaces it - but still makes an ECM boat worth owning at all? That's the real challenge. I'd kill for a falcon/rook ship that held the reliable horror of the other recons.

ECM kicks arse, when it works - other EWAR just kicks arse all the damn time. Other EWAR never gets "well....crap, I'm dead, bad dice". That is the issue - so lets find a way to fix that.

Just...y'know, be careful what you wish for, with all the advances in neutralising ECM/weakening it over the years, permajamming is limited to small hulls fighting over their size and that's really about it, if we set horribly, horribly bad luck aside.

Hell, even stopping the re-lock requirement and reducing the cycle time might be interesting. i.e. when you're jammed, you lose targets as usual, but after it falls, old targets (those still on grid) automatically re-acquire.


Edit: And its not a "bit" harder - you're looking at...oh what? I dunno last ship I was in was a mach so that's a sensor str of 31, out the box at all V. Even a balls-to-the-wall max jam DPS falcon - no finer jammer exists - is going to hard a very hard time locking that down reliably, less than 50% chance per cycle (per mod, but assume 1 mod per sensor type, off racial is futile). And thats absolutely max jamming. Add a tank (see how long that lasts vs a BS) and its even less likely. And thats a Falcon, the best of the best.

What would an arazu or a pilgrim do to that Mach? Utterly neuter it, with no dice required.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#204 - 2013-07-28 17:46:46 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Justin Parmala wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


I have no idea who DHB wildcat is, should I know? Have I just been introduced to a z-list celebrity from some obscure TV channel I don't know. Other than that the rest of your post is merely opinion and opinions without facts or reasoned arguments are worthless.


You asked proof that experienced PvPers agree with me. I pointed one out. Not my problem you don't know who he is. Go google his name or something. Infact, go google who the oldest and best PvPers are, then go ask them yourself what they think about ECM.

And stop hiding behind an alt, post with your main.




I shouldn't have to go fact checking your arguments, it's your job to bring the facts to the table. Also I don't have alts I have fully fleshed out main characters though admittedly more than one.

Anyhow after you rudely told someone to STFU I am now obliged to ask you to:

'Show us on the dolly where the nasty Falcon touched you...'



Its nobodies job to bring facts to you so you can decide whether they are right or not. What do you think you are? Some kind of forum king that everybody has to pay a debt to?

Your arrogance is astounding.



Apologies for arrogantly asking the OP to support his argument with something relevant to the discussion like some facts or reasoning. Without facts I could state all day long that the sky is green and always is green, doesn't make it true though, but hell if that's the type of considered debate you like then I reiterate the sky is ******* green.


I was actually responding to Justin Parmela as indicated in the quote in my last post or have you got mixed up and brought along another forum alt to support you in your argument.

As for facts all I've seen is the equivalent of 'I guy I quite like who has had loads of kills says that ECM is crap therefore ECM is crap and a broken mechanic'

From this I deduce that your pal doesn't like Ewar and as such anyone who encounters him should bring some ewar for a quick and easy fight.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#205 - 2013-07-28 18:10:23 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


I was actually responding to Justin Parmela as indicated in the quote in my last post or have you got mixed up and brought along another forum alt to support you in your argument.

As for facts all I've seen is the equivalent of 'I guy I quite like who has had loads of kills says that ECM is crap therefore ECM is crap and a broken mechanic'

From this I deduce that your pal doesn't like Ewar and as such anyone who encounters him should bring some ewar for a quick and easy fight.


This isn't a personal chat room, if you have something to say you say it to everyone. And anybody can respond.

And there is alot more to being a good PvPer than having a load of kills.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#206 - 2013-07-28 22:59:10 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


I was actually responding to Justin Parmela as indicated in the quote in my last post or have you got mixed up and brought along another forum alt to support you in your argument.

As for facts all I've seen is the equivalent of 'I guy I quite like who has had loads of kills says that ECM is crap therefore ECM is crap and a broken mechanic'

From this I deduce that your pal doesn't like Ewar and as such anyone who encounters him should bring some ewar for a quick and easy fight.


This isn't a personal chat room, if you have something to say you say it to everyone. And anybody can respond.

And there is alot more to being a good PvPer than having a load of kills.


And there's a lot more to being a forum warrior too than simply bringing an alt with you to back you up. You slipped up and revealed who your alt is. Doesn't change the fact though that your hypothesis sucks. On that everyone agrees.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Whitehound
#207 - 2013-07-28 23:59:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Diesel47 wrote:
Still don't like random luck based mechanics.

Hint: never visit Vegas.

When you get lucky and get a 1v1 against a ship of your own class, which is a matter of luck on its own, do you then always win? No, you do not always win. So how is this different and not a random luck based mechanic? I can tell you - it is not different. When you then do not like random luck based mechanics then you also do not like PvP.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#208 - 2013-07-29 01:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Gallifreyan
More off topic and Troll posts removed.

Lets try to keep the discussion on topic and post only positive discussions.
Lets also try to keep discussion civil.

If you are not all familiar with all our Forum Rules. Please refresh yourself now.

ISD Gallifreyan

Lt. Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)

Interstellar Services Department
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#209 - 2013-07-29 03:16:45 UTC
I posted an idea on how to make ECM better
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263600&find=unread

I think it should be made to be the opposite of sensor damps.
It prevents you from locking people close to you, i go into lots of details in that thread.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#210 - 2013-07-29 04:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cordo Draken
Forum ate my post

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#211 - 2013-07-29 04:19:44 UTC
Justin Parmala wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
That's the thing though - when it works it is (to all intents and purposes) not more materially effective than other EWAR. The only real difference is that other ewar affords the /illusion/ of a choice/ability to combat it.


If a gang is rolling with damps/TDs - their tackle etc will fly accordingly - you can chase it futilely but your death is just as certain as an ECM bird jamming you constantly. You might think you had a chance, but you really didn't.


Say somebody is flying an anti-tackle ship. And if anything comes in close to hard tackle him he will just blow them away...

Which is more powerful?

A damp which lets him shoot and fight out to web range or an ECM that makes him into a flying brick?

Now which is more fun?

ECM is just a cheap way for really bad players to fight, that's honestly all I see it as. And its too random too, something this random doesn't fit in with EVE gameplay.


Not to point out the Obvious, but hello Diesel's Alt.

And so, if you're really trying to say that your buddy quit because of ECM, then that's being pretty thin skinned.

I rarely fly ECM, but in the number of times we fight outnumbered, ECM helps to even the odds. When we know that the opposition has a pair of Logi, ECM is a helpful choice to even be able to fight against it when you don't have high numbers to just overwhelm the rep of the Logi. My point is... ECM does have it's place. It is also the only Recon that really needs to commit to it's role in fitting whereas other do not in order to be effective. Yes, ECM can be very effective, it also has huge drawbacks for the ECM pilot.

This whole stint about randomness of this Mechanic having no place in Eve... Because it's a random success? I hate to break this to you, but Many things are random... In Eve, in Life... Everywhere. Tornadoes come and go with Hi & Low pressure systems converging, but where they form is random. You go through and gate and on the other side is a gatecamp that wasn't there but a minute ago an you die horribly... Random. They both suck but what are you going to do about it? It's part of life, part of the game... A Game... Who the frik really cares that much? We all have the same resources. Why gripe about it? It's ridiculas to gripe about it. Are you really goin to throw a tantrum over how this mechanic delivers it's affect? Seriously?

All bashing and difference of opinion aside... ECM is one of many tools in the gran tool box of Eve. It has it's place. Just Like a Vindicator that stomped the **** out of my Gnosis. Yeah it sucked, yeah the opposition pulled a log on trap... I expected that... Still lost a ship, but I don't go run to the forum and cry that a Vindi is uber OP. ofcourse it is, it's a high value faction BS. It has it's place. But, if I can catch it on the right terms and have a better plan, that Vindi will go down and that pilot will be out close to 2 bill. I know this game, I know the risks... I play the risks, but we all die sooner or later. But I know a secret... It's just a game.

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#212 - 2013-07-29 07:36:02 UTC
ECM is not OP with numbers
Version 1.0
By: Aliventi
A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP" threads pop up.


If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.

In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last until the module is turned off. Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6.
Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of jamming or a 55% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of jamming or a 72.31% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of jamming or a 77.5% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of jamming or a 82% chance of doing nothing.

See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*

You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.

All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship:
Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming

That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.

Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?

EC-300 drone strength is 1.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming

EC-600 drone strength is 1.5.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming

Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True:
(How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)

5 EC-300 jam strength 1:
vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
I will concede that for 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.

5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5:
vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.

You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?
Humang
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#213 - 2013-07-29 07:41:21 UTC
Humang wrote:

Remove he chance mechanic and have ECM instead slow the cycle time of turrets / launchers / remote repair, and increase the sig resolution / explosion radius of turrets / launchers used by the target ships, thus effectively reducing the damage that a ship can put out, or how much they can repair another target. (granted leaving ECM burst & Remote ECM bust the same) This could bring ECM more in-line with other E-war modules.

On a side not I would also change ECCM to resist all E-war to an extent (reduce the effect of the E-war effect)


Just putting it out there again.
A constructive yes or no would be nice.

AFK cloaking thread Summary - Provided by Paikis Good Post Etiquette - Provided by CCP Grayscale
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2013-07-29 07:57:07 UTC
Delete ECM, it's a bad mechanic.
Take damps from Gallente and give them to Caldari.
Create a new secondary ewar for Caldari that reduces the range and transfer amount of shield, armour and cap transfers by a sensible amount, subject to stacking.
Give Gallente a new missile-disruption ewar.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#215 - 2013-07-29 08:14:07 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
I see a broken mechanic and its about time CCP fixes it.
How is it a broken mechanic? When I ask this, I require some facts and figures to back up your claim. Simply stating it's broken, will not suffice. After all, if you are making this claim, I'm sure you have all the graphs and numbers at hand. So it shouldn't be a problem. Big smile
OP you seem to have missed my post. Just quoting myself.

Could you supply, what I ask for?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
#216 - 2013-07-29 08:36:42 UTC
I think ECM is good and not over powered. I would be annoyed if it was nerfed because people just want to build for DPS and tank with no concessions to counter-EWar, (which is fine - but is the choice they make before they undock).

This is all just my opinion. But I am glad that EWar, (of all types), is in the game and that "Gameplay" isn't just a min/max for DPS and tank.

Please be carefull what you wish for.
Whitehound
#217 - 2013-07-29 09:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Aliventi wrote:
ECM is not OP with numbers
Version 1.0
By: Aliventi
A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP" threads pop up.

...ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last until the module is turned off....

Firstly, good job taking the time to come down with numbers! Thank you.

One thing I have noticed. ECM also only lasts until the module is turned off. So I do not think this needs to be mentioned as a difference.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
#218 - 2013-07-29 09:51:13 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
ECM is not OP with numbers
Version 1.0
By: Aliventi
A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP" threads pop up.

...ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last until the module is turned off....

Firstly, good job taking the time to come down with numbers! Thank you.

One thing I have noticed. ECM also only lasts until the module is turned off. So I do not think this needs to be mentioned as a difference.


The poster you quoted is correct in stating that ECM "effects" last 20 seconds - inasmuch the module does not permenantly affect the target - it has a chance to affect the target for 20 seconds every 20 seconds. I think maybe this is a misconception about ECM that a lot of people have - if it doesn't succeed it has no effect for 20 seconds - if it does it's effect lasts 20 seconds. Other modules affect their target the moment the module is activated - like a target painter.

Hope this helps a little
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#219 - 2013-07-29 09:56:55 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Delete ECM, it's a bad mechanic.
Take damps from Gallente and give them to Caldari.
Create a new secondary ewar for Caldari that reduces the range and transfer amount of shield, armour and cap transfers by a sensible amount, subject to stacking.
Give Gallente a new missile-disruption ewar.


I honestly think Caldari, with their amount of long range hulls would be horrendously nasty with damps. To the point people would be begging for ECM back. Flawless ability to block locks at perfect engagement range other races have a hard time reaching? Ouch.


@Aliventi: Well played Smile
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#220 - 2013-07-29 10:07:34 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Delete ECM, it's a bad mechanic.
Take damps from Gallente and give them to Caldari.
Create a new secondary ewar for Caldari that reduces the range and transfer amount of shield, armour and cap transfers by a sensible amount, subject to stacking.
Give Gallente a new missile-disruption ewar.


I honestly think Caldari, with their amount of long range hulls would be horrendously nasty with damps. To the point people would be begging for ECM back. Flawless ability to block locks at perfect engagement range other races have a hard time reaching? Ouch.


@Aliventi: Well played Smile


I didn't know caldari ewar ships had stats that couldn't be adjusted.