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A High Sec Manifesto
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#121 - 2011-11-23 17:44:37 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
MalcanisWhilst I'm instinctively inclined to agree with you, I'm reluctantly forced to state that it's meaningless to reconsider NPC corps until the wardec & bounty systems have been convincingly reformed.

My [i wrote:
personal [/i]sentiment is that NPC corps should really be for new starters, but again we run into the core theme of the manifesto that hi-sec isn't primarily used by and shouldn't be constructed around the needs of new players, but "convenience" players. So, again, what we should be looking to do is open up opportunities for chosing a level of risk and reward appropriate to their requirements rather than simply punish people for not wanting to join a player corp. One obvious way of doing this is to allow players a free choice of NPC corp and then attach different terms and conditions to membership of those corps.


You're ignoring alts on primary accounts or alt alts on alt accounts...
Any self respecting player corp is not going to accept an alt who is only on for an hour or so at a time a couple of times a week,
and there are good reasons for not having all your alts in one corp..



Please expand on your comment - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#122 - 2011-11-24 03:14:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Please expand on your comment - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

I've read it three times, and I'm not sure what he's trying to say.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#123 - 2011-11-24 14:24:58 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
MalcanisWhilst I'm instinctively inclined to agree with you, I'm reluctantly forced to state that it's meaningless to reconsider NPC corps until the wardec & bounty systems have been convincingly reformed.

My [i wrote:
personal [/i]sentiment is that NPC corps should really be for new starters, but again we run into the core theme of the manifesto that hi-sec isn't primarily used by and shouldn't be constructed around the needs of new players, but "convenience" players. So, again, what we should be looking to do is open up opportunities for chosing a level of risk and reward appropriate to their requirements rather than simply punish people for not wanting to join a player corp. One obvious way of doing this is to allow players a free choice of NPC corp and then attach different terms and conditions to membership of those corps.


You're ignoring alts on primary accounts or alt alts on alt accounts...
Any self respecting player corp is not going to accept an alt who is only on for an hour or so at a time a couple of times a week,
and there are good reasons for not having all your alts in one corp..


AS an alt I have to agree. Additionally you have to consider that sometimes RL intervenes and you don't play for months at a time. Many corps won't keep an inactive or even an unsub. Where would they turn up without NPC corps?

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#124 - 2011-11-24 14:30:57 UTC
But how does that contradict what I proposed? Or are you just being discreet in how you say "I agree with Malc"?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2011-11-24 15:51:58 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Introduction:



(5) "Carebears". These are players - often with significant assets and skills - who simply won't accept the risk of losing a ship to PvP at any price, regardless of other considerations. Economic, gameplay and game balance considerations are not of interest to them; the idea that other players can destroy their ship is revolting to them.

For the carebears, I honestly have no ideas. The psychology of being emotionally invested in your ship to such an extent that you won't accept losing it for any reason is so foreign to what I believe EVE is about that I can't think of a good way to integrate that lifestyle into a fully connected, single shard PvP game with a player driven economy. Let's just hope that there aren't really as many of these guys as we fear, and that most of the people in hi-sec aren't quite so risk averse as we're led to believe.



I feel that these types of people need to be "re-educated" as it were to be less risk averse, or to be capable to be more accepting of combat. I feel that this attitude is detrimental to EVE as a whole going forward.

Other than that, well written, Malcanis.

Edit: Re-educated, or forced to cope or leave/die.



Good thread Malcanis ....

Myxx, your statement that Carebears are detrimental to EVE .... where's that coming from? .... after all, they pay to sustain CCP operations, provide market capacity, etc. ... can you expand on what detriment they cause to the rest of EVE? --> other than the typical Nullbear perspective of them being "different" and therefore "undesireables" and "not worthy of playing the elite game of EVE" hogwash of course .... you sound like you have deeper thoughts on the matter that would be great to delve into.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#126 - 2011-11-24 21:39:30 UTC
I guess it comes down to the 'requirements' put in to the NPC corp. I mean this is not a chronologically newb account but it is basically skilless. Unless it was an isk requirement which would be detrimental to new player if it was anywhere near large enough for me to notice it. Unless my little errand runner/ scout who can die all week without mattering is an exploit?

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#127 - 2011-11-24 22:48:53 UTC
JitaJane wrote:
I guess it comes down to the 'requirements' put in to the NPC corp. I mean this is not a chronologically newb account but it is basically skilless. Unless it was an isk requirement which would be detrimental to new player if it was anywhere near large enough for me to notice it. Unless my little errand runner/ scout who can die all week without mattering is an exploit?



Oh I see, no I had nothing in mind like that. No, I meant that membership of different NPC corps might give access to different activities and privileges but might also involve obligations and risks. Did you know that Caldari corporations fight amongst each other? And that there's a war on (that might well involve the military organisations). Some NPC corps even have a presence in lo-sec...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#128 - 2011-11-25 01:43:41 UTC
Yeah they do some corp infighting in the Caldari Cosmos IIRC. And of course lots of corps have low presence. You always get those couriers when you are starting out, course the pirates know about them too so you lose a few noob ships before you learn to turn them down. It was the requirement part that set off alarm bells.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2011-11-25 14:03:39 UTC
JitaJane wrote:
Yeah they do some corp infighting in the Caldari Cosmos IIRC. And of course lots of corps have low presence. You always get those couriers when you are starting out, course the pirates know about them too so you lose a few noob ships before you learn to turn them down. It was the requirement part that set off alarm bells.


Oooh, heres a idea.

How about if you're in an NPC corp you get shot at by the opposing faction navy when you visit their space
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#130 - 2011-11-25 14:06:40 UTC
Yeep wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
Yeah they do some corp infighting in the Caldari Cosmos IIRC. And of course lots of corps have low presence. You always get those couriers when you are starting out, course the pirates know about them too so you lose a few noob ships before you learn to turn them down. It was the requirement part that set off alarm bells.


Oooh, heres a idea.

How about if you're in an NPC corp you get shot at by the opposing faction navy when you visit their space


Well if you're in Navy corps, anyway...

...but then what privileges or opportunities does membership confer? Zero NPC corp tax? access to better missions than other NPC corp members? Faster faction standings increases?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#131 - 2011-11-28 18:29:23 UTC
Yeep wrote:
JitaJane wrote:
Yeah they do some corp infighting in the Caldari Cosmos IIRC. And of course lots of corps have low presence. You always get those couriers when you are starting out, course the pirates know about them too so you lose a few noob ships before you learn to turn them down. It was the requirement part that set off alarm bells.


Oooh, heres a idea.

How about if you're in an NPC corp you get shot at by the opposing faction navy when you visit their space


There is this thing called faction warfare...

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2011-11-28 18:53:37 UTC
My point about alts boils down to a couple of things
1) If you have alts on a primary or secondary account you probably only log them on once in a while - may be once a week, may be once a month, may be only when your main's corp gets war decced or may be only when you want to check the prices in a regional hub. The alt may also only exist to allow you to get stuff from a region where your main can't go.
I can't see player corps, other than your main's putting up with that level of inactivity. And having the alt in your main's corp defeats one of the the objects of having and alt in the first place
2) If you impose a lesser requirement for an NPC corp, ie to maintain membership you have to maintain some form of standing by carrying out tasks for that corp then again the alt fails to meet the requirements because they're simply not on line enough.
3) If 2 exists you may never meet the requirements to leave a starter NPC corp simply because the alt is never online enough

If I remember what the other thing was I'll edit this but it escapes me for now.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#133 - 2011-11-28 19:03:55 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
My point about alts boils down to a couple of things
1) If you have alts on a primary or secondary account you probably only log them on once in a while - may be once a week, may be once a month, may be only when your main's corp gets war decced or may be only when you want to check the prices in a regional hub. The alt may also only exist to allow you to get stuff from a region where your main can't go.
I can't see player corps, other than your main's putting up with that level of inactivity. And having the alt in your main's corp defeats one of the the objects of having and alt in the first place
2) If you impose a lesser requirement for an NPC corp, ie to maintain membership you have to maintain some form of standing by carrying out tasks for that corp then again the alt fails to meet the requirements because they're simply not on line enough.
3) If 2 exists you may never meet the requirements to leave a starter NPC corp simply because the alt is never online enough

If I remember what the other thing was I'll edit this but it escapes me for now.


I don't see an NPC corp ever actually kicking anyone out purely for inactivity - that defeats the whole object of having an NPC corp.

It's not like you're going to have to attend CTAs to be a member of the State War Academy. "Obligations" might be more like tax rates, requirements to do missions (with no time limit) to maintain special access to corp-specific facilities, standings modifications vs other corps and factions leading to higher transaction and refinery taxes (or perhaps even being barred from stations belonging to hostile corps). There might also be other limitations like being required to maintain faction standings above a certain level - and keep hostile faction standings below a certain level.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#134 - 2011-11-29 00:30:35 UTC
For miners:

Why should you know all asteroids as what they yield on warp in.
Make scanning a roid part of the mining proces, this makes miners do more then warp in, lock and zippidity afk. Make the damage higher and yield on usage of wrong crystals lower than currently.


For null sec dwellers one of my major issues was always them jumpbridges. Set a limit per constelation or region of JB's possible to anchor.
Next to that add a special fuelbay to ships for JB fuelling. Wanna use the JB then you better have the fuel. Players themselves are then responcible for having the fuel for the trip there and back. Take that transporter along with fuel to get back.

The same fuelbat can be used in high sec as travelpayment for gate maintenance at a set rate. Rate going up slightly the lower the security rating because the lower the security rating the higher ofcourse the maintenance costs.

The null sec gates are exempt from this tax because no empire controls them and a fixed maintenance cost for gates in null sec befalls the alliance which controls it.
This only has to be a small fee. No need to add bureaucratic costs which the empires have.
Count MonteCarlo
Gods Holy Light Bringing You're Penance
#135 - 2011-12-03 16:22:07 UTC
Not read the thread but brilliant post OP and I agree completely
Aineko Macx
#136 - 2011-12-13 13:39:33 UTC
Good stuff Malc.

Some random comments:
- I think you should phrase out more clearly in your proposal that the risk vs. reward ratio in hisec is currently completely out of whack, especially now that incursion running has been perfected, and that this needs to change.
- The players you call "commercial" are, to a large part, alts of 0.0 pilots. This has some implications that should be considered when reworking the concept of hisec.
- I don't think that letting the sec rating of systems influence things like production efficiency. POS spots, production slots and roid belts are already extremely crowded in hisec. By forcing people to concentrate their activities in fewer systems to stay econonomically competitive is just added annoyance for little benefit. Yes, it's a driver for conflict, which is good, but it doesn't outweigh the negative aspect IMO.
- I wholeheartedly agree on the much needed rework of the bounty and wardec system. So much potential there...
- IMO the whole d-scan mechanics need a complete overhaul. Hitting d-scan every few seconds as both PVPer or PVEr in lowsec or 0.0 isn't good gameplay nor a definitive solution. Cloakies also shouldn't be comepletely invisible to d-scan either. Might be difficult to balance between escapability and catchability here...

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Time Funnel
Just a side dish
Outspoken Alliance
#137 - 2011-12-13 19:45:08 UTC
Here are my thoughts on some improvements that may help empire and the game come alive.

1) CONCORD and Faction Police are different forces. CONCORD are still unbeatable but the Faction Police are kill-able and escape-able. Introduce faction hits for committing any infraction that causes the faction police to show up. Bigger faction hits for actually killing Faction police. As the sec status goes down faction police response is lower and slower. In a 0.9 you might get a very large and instantaneous response. in a 0.1 it might take 2 minutes for the faction police to show up and they trickle in slowly as long as the pirate is criminally flagged or undesirable status. The drops on faction police would contribute to LP or tags or something FW, no ISK.

2) More granularity for security status. No more High/Low/0.0 splits with very little difference between them. Each step means a meaningful something. CONCORD and Faction police show up for things, but at different times. CONCORD are inescapable but the Faction police are more numbers based, and may have scrambling ships. 0.5 you might be able to escape from CONCORD and the Faction Police. Maybe. CONCORD shows up from 1.0 - 0.6. From 0.5 to 0.1 only faction police show up.

1.0 - No wardecs honoured. Instant CONCORD. No insurance. This is basically newbie friendly space. Highly reactive faction security forces. Islands of very safe space around every faction stronghold / newbie centre.

0.9 - CONCORD Delay (3 seconds), Instant Faction police

0.8 - War declarations honoured. CONCORD Delay (6 seconds), Faction Delay (3 seconds)

0.7 - CONCORD Delay (9 seconds), Faction Delay (6 seconds)

0.6 - Longer CONCORD delay (15 seconds), Faction Delay (9 seconds)

0.5 - No CONCORD, Faction police only. A response time of 12 seconds and a strong response. Possible to escape. It will chase pilots around and contain warp scrambling ships. Good AI and an escalation every minute to ensure that they are not chained or takable for long periods of time. It would be possible for criminals to run away and jump out of system or dock. If you gank in this space you should die half the time.

0.4 - Faction Police only. Response time of 20 seconds. The initial force in would not scramble. The faction forces get reinforced every 1 minute, introducing scrambling ships and escalating until the criminals are no longer in system.

0.3 - Faction Response 40 seconds. Approximately half the response of 0.4 systems.

0.2 - Faction Response 1 minute. Approximately half the response of 0.3 systems.

0.1 - Faction Response 2 minutes. Approximately half the response of 0.2 systems.

0.0 - As it is now.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2011-12-13 21:53:14 UTC
Just get rid of NPC corps altogether. If a player wants to be a "Freerunner' and do his own thing while connected to a chat room, that's his own business. But also let them be individually wardec'd. Idle/inactive players, or rookies and casuals with not much to their name are weeded out due to lack of reward, while guys afk autopiloting from Rens to Jita in a freighter under CONCORD"s watch everyday are either forced to fight or join an organization that can protect them to get their ISK.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#139 - 2011-12-14 04:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
NPC corps be involved in faction warfare. The new player has something immediately to strive for [and lets face it its not like the new players to have anything worth losing at the start] and so the only way someone can go into a warring factions space is to create a corp. Make system sec status change dynamically.

Enable pos's to be put up in ALl empire space and make player owned CO's capable of being put up in all of high sec too. Enable trade to flow, remove bounties, goods tax and overseers personal effects. Replace near invulnerable CONCORD with the faction navy and you give ALL people a fighting chance.

Bounties with transferrable killrights is a decent idea but bounties shouldn't be restricted to people with a low sec status, anyone should be a target. So say you put up a reward for the bounty of a person. Multiple people can claim a killright and the first person to kill him/her gets the reward [and maybe something sparkly from the bounty hunters office]. More economic warfare with various methods of reducing the isk income of an opponent.

Conflict should be encouraged in high sec and made more accessible.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#140 - 2011-12-14 08:09:46 UTC
Terranid Meester wrote:
NPC corps be involved in faction warfare. The new player has something immediately to strive for [and lets face it its not like the new players to have anything worth losing at the start] and so the only way someone can go into a warring factions space is to create a corp. Make system sec status change dynamically.


There are already NPC faction warfare corps, I believe. The only requirement for a new player to join is a minimal amount of standing with the faction involved.

Terranid Meester wrote:

Enable pos's to be put up in ALl empire space and make player owned CO's capable of being put up in all of high sec too. Enable trade to flow, remove bounties, goods tax and overseers personal effects. Replace near invulnerable CONCORD with the faction navy and you give ALL people a fighting chance.


I honestly don't know enough about PI to evaluate this, but for some reason it makes me apprehensive, and the idea of empires looking away whilst pod pilots seize customs offices seems rather contradictory somehow

Terranid Meester wrote:

Bounties with transferrable killrights is a decent idea but bounties shouldn't be restricted to people with a low sec status, anyone should be a target.


The proposal I put forward did not restrict bounties to characters with low sec status. It's perfectly possible to have killrights on characters with sec higher than -5.0. However my proposal did allow for anyone to put a bounty on -5.0 flashies at any time

Terranid Meester wrote:

So say you put up a reward for the bounty of a person. Multiple people can claim a killright and the first person to kill him/her gets the reward [and maybe something sparkly from the bounty hunters office]. More economic warfare with various methods of reducing the isk income of an opponent.


Are you proposing that anyone should be able to attack another player merely because someone has put a bounty on them? Such a system would be wide open to abuse and essentially end hi-sec. It's very important to consider loopholes!

Terranid Meester wrote:

Conflict should be encouraged in high sec and made more accessible.


Agreed 100%, but the essential point of hi-sec should remain that a player is able to choose the level of risk/reward he operates at.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016