These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

So why do people hate cloaking?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#621 - 2013-07-22 23:17:30 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

But no, you want CCP to change the game simply because you are risk averse. .


You seem to have the most remarkable pair of blinkers on. AFK camping is a risk averse strategy.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#622 - 2013-07-22 23:19:49 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

But honestly, wormhole people probably wouldn't care because they deal with the threat all day every day.


... and have a mechanism for preventing people from coming into their system should they choose to use it, called collapsing the hole.



Except you have no control over incoming connections. The new scanning changes are both a blessing and a curse, since you now can tell easily if you have a new sig (which mostly is an incoming connection) but the bad part is that there seem to be more of them since there's more people scanning because of the ease of it.

but we just deal with it.. Heck.. I've even mined in the WH since the anom changes.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#623 - 2013-07-22 23:22:20 UTC
Soko99 wrote:

but we just deal with it.. Heck.. I've even mined in the WH since the anom changes.


WH rewards are greater, particularly the Sleeper loot.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#624 - 2013-07-22 23:23:15 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

But no, you want CCP to change the game simply because you are risk averse. .


You seem to have the most remarkable pair of blinkers on. AFK camping is a risk averse strategy.


How so?

Someone who is cloaked poses no risk to you until they risk themselves by uncloaking.

Please explain exactly how the existing cloaking mechanic is broken or is bad game design.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#625 - 2013-07-22 23:28:04 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

But no, you want CCP to change the game simply because you are risk averse. .


You seem to have the most remarkable pair of blinkers on. AFK camping is a risk averse strategy.


How so?

Someone who is cloaked poses no risk to you until they risk themselves by uncloaking.

Please explain exactly how the existing cloaking mechanic is broken or is bad game design.



I'm watching closely and you're moving the pea under the thimble. You say that I'm risk averse, which is why I don't risk my assets when there are reds in system. But you completely ignore the risk aversion of the red in system who's cloaked, cannot be scanned out and sitting at a safe spot, waiting to cyno in a fleet of covert BS whenever he feels like it (possibly). How risk averse is he?

All I'm asking is that you admit both sides of the equation here suffer from risk aversion. For the industrialist he's either all-in or not, whereas the AFK nullified cloaky can pick the moment most opportune for him. If he doesn't want to, he can sit there 23/7 and mine veldspar in high sec with his main, for weeks on end. There's nothing the defender can do about it.

Simply put, it's poor game design.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#626 - 2013-07-22 23:32:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

But no, you want CCP to change the game simply because you are risk averse. .


You seem to have the most remarkable pair of blinkers on. AFK camping is a risk averse strategy.


How so?

Someone who is cloaked poses no risk to you until they risk themselves by uncloaking.

Please explain exactly how the existing cloaking mechanic is broken or is bad game design.



I'm watching closely and you're moving the pea under the thimble. You say that I'm risk averse, which is why I don't risk my assets when there are reds in system. But you completely ignore the risk aversion of the red in system who's cloaked, cannot be scanned out and sitting at a safe spot, waiting to cyno in a fleet of covert BS whenever he feels like it (possibly). How risk averse is he?

All I'm asking is that you admit both sides of the equation here suffer from risk aversion. For the industrialist he's either all-in or not, whereas the AFK nullified cloaky can pick the moment most opportune for him. If he doesn't want to, he can sit there 23/7 and mine veldspar in high sec with his main, for weeks on end. There's nothing the defender can do about it.

Simply put, it's poor game design.


It's called tactics and assets working as intended. Cloaky ships are specifically suited to be used to cyno-in friends, and they quite usually die when doing so. Nothing risk averse about that.

You still keep ignoring all the things as a defender you can do, but choose not too because of fear and :effort: You don;t belong in null if you can't or won't secure your system(s).

What exactly is poor about the game design? All you have presented thus far is you don't like it.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#627 - 2013-07-22 23:36:59 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Someone sitting in system does not reduce the industry rating of a system. Bad cowardly players who refuse to do anything at all as a result are what reduce the industry rating of a system. CCP can't patch cowardice


It's not cowardice to not risk your assets. It's stupid to risk them when you're not compelled to. Cowardice is running a system down by sitting AFK cloaked 23/7, knowing you can't be scanned out.


Gonna go ahead and quote myself again here.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
A smart player avoids handing out free kills to his enemy.

A coward whines about having to do it in the first place.


It applies pretty well to what you just said. It can be done, you just don't want to do it. Why should be given anything extra, when you won't use what you already have?

Also, I love your logical fallacy that a cloaker is completely untouchable. When was the last time you took a crack at one? At any point, have you ever tried, or have you just wrung your pixelated hands and thought about how unfair it was?

I've said it before about you, but it's self victimization mentality at it's finest.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#628 - 2013-07-22 23:42:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Then why all the complaints about the, and I quote "afk cloaker"?




I said it before.. and I will say it again. The complaints are not about the AFK cloaker.. Sure they CLAIM it's the AFK cloakers ruining it.. but the complaint has nothing to do with the AFK cloaker.. What you want is a way to tell an ACTIVE cloaker from the AFK one. So that you can instantly tell when the guy is back at his PC stalking you vice just logged in cloaked in your system. So while we're at it.. Why not just add a module that will tell you the intention of the player behind the ship.. I mean that cloaky red might not even be there to hurt you, so wouldn't you WANT to know if he's even a threat vice just being in your system at his keyboard. (kind of sounds ridiculous when I push it a couple of logic steps huh?)
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#629 - 2013-07-22 23:44:12 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

It's called tactics and assets working as intended. Cloaky ships are specifically suited to be used to cyno-in friends, and they quite usually die when doing so. Nothing risk averse about that.


Hmmm. No, they don't. Unless they're idiots.

Doc Fury wrote:

You still keep ignoring all the things as a defender you can do, but choose not too because of fear and :effort: You don;t belong in null if you can't or won't secure your system(s).


Yes, the thing is, there's nothing you can do as a defender. That's the beauty of cloaking. You make yourself vulnerable whenever you jump. And if you don't jump, there's nothing anyone can do about you. That is why people pay others to sit cloaked in systems to run industry levels down. Of course that's an effort-free, risk averse way of running it down. But for some reason you don't recognise it as such and would prefer industrialists to just undock their shiny macks regardless. As if you have a clue about Human nature.

We go around in circles in this debate...


Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#630 - 2013-07-22 23:47:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also, I love your logical fallacy that a cloaker is completely untouchable.


That's not a logical fallacy. As long as he's cloaked at his safe, he's untouchable. I don't think you can argue with that.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#631 - 2013-07-22 23:47:21 UTC
Soko99 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Then why all the complaints about the, and I quote "afk cloaker"?




I said it before.. and I will say it again. The complaints are not about the AFK cloaker.. Sure they CLAIM it's the AFK cloakers ruining it.. but the complaint has nothing to do with the AFK cloaker.. What you want is a way to tell an ACTIVE cloaker from the AFK one. So that you can instantly tell when the guy is back at his PC stalking you vice just logged in cloaked in your system. So while we're at it.. Why not just add a module that will tell you the intention of the player behind the ship.. I mean that cloaky red might not even be there to hurt you, so wouldn't you WANT to know if he's even a threat vice just being in your system at his keyboard. (kind of sounds ridiculous when I push it a couple of logic steps huh?)


If we do this, we definitely need to add the "hurt feelings" petition. It will monetarily compensate a player when another player hurts their feelings, and put the bad person into negative wallet balance.

Please, please understand, that was sarcasm.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#632 - 2013-07-22 23:47:43 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Someone should call WebMD, we found a new disease. i call it "Effortitis", and you people are afflicted.


You only want the effort to go one way. That is the major hole in the "effort" argument.


The effort only goes one way because the guy putting no effort in isnt doing anything. Gaining nothing. Wasting time logged into a game sitting helpelessly in one spot. Interestingly enough it requires about as much mental effort to be afraid of the guy, to run away when you see him and to spend all your time trying to convince CCP to change it as it does just ot make a few minor adjustments to the way you play for him to never be a problem to you ever again. Or anyone for that matter.

On the other hand, given a magical tool to remove all doubt and uncertainty so you can mine and rat the most lucrative sectors of space in complete and utter safety would be doing so with no effort. Oh, a red in system? dock up. Still here? scan around...still cant find him? ok, break out the super duper magical find the bad man and make him go away tool....cool, got him, back to ratting!

Course, I doubt you see a problem with it.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#633 - 2013-07-22 23:49:35 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also, I love your logical fallacy that a cloaker is completely untouchable.


That's not a logical fallacy. As long as he's cloaked at his safe, he's untouchable. I don't think you can argue with that.


He also cannot do a damn thing to you in that circumstance either. You can't argue with that.

Putting drag/uncloak bubbles around a asteroid field? Nah, that's too hard, let's just pack up and move to another system that we had indy level 5 at...

Yeesh. It surprises me the amount of effort being put it, to not put any effort in. You just can't help the people who refuse to attempt to defend themselves.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#634 - 2013-07-22 23:50:14 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Soko99 wrote:

but we just deal with it.. Heck.. I've even mined in the WH since the anom changes.


WH rewards are greater, particularly the Sleeper loot.



ROFL..

You make more in bounty and just ratting anoms in null, than you do in a c2-4. Sure.. If you get into a c6 you can make shitloads up to billions per site, but you're not going to be running those solo, whereas you can solo any of the anoms and even scanned sites in null fairly easy. (few exceptions like Darwin torpedo etc)

Should we talk about the "greater" reward of mining? ROFL. no local, 75% max yield profit while refining.

Can I ask how much time you've ever spent in WHs to get that theory of yours?
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#635 - 2013-07-22 23:50:59 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also, I love your logical fallacy that a cloaker is completely untouchable.


That's not a logical fallacy. As long as he's cloaked at his safe, he's untouchable. I don't think you can argue with that.


Oddly enough, if he were docked in station or just burning up from a safe in an interceptor he is also untouchable. In either case he is the same as the cloaker, unless you hawkeye them for hours and hours or maybe even days or weeks, he can quite frankly make a move undetected.

Unless of course you play smart and are always vigilant and prepared, then you'd catch when he was coming, regardless of what he was doing.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#636 - 2013-07-22 23:53:43 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also, I love your logical fallacy that a cloaker is completely untouchable.


That's not a logical fallacy. As long as he's cloaked at his safe, he's untouchable. I don't think you can argue with that.


Oddly enough, if he were docked in station or just burning up from a safe in an interceptor he is also untouchable. In either case he is the same as the cloaker, unless you hawkeye them for hours and hours or maybe even days or weeks, he can quite frankly make a move undetected.

Unless of course you play smart and are always vigilant and prepared, then you'd catch when he was coming, regardless of what he was doing.


But that's the thing, Kijo. Apparently, D-scan, a fundamental part of the game, is too much to ask for.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#637 - 2013-07-22 23:54:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

He also cannot do a damn thing to you in that circumstance either. You can't argue with that.


He can't, but it's his decision whether or not to engage, not anyone else's.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Putting drag/uncloak bubbles around a asteroid field? Nah, that's too hard, let's just pack up and move to another system that we had indy level 5 at...


Well, that's a pretty dumb idea. It would take quite a few bubbles to cover a large or extra large grav from all points. Bubbles don't automatically de-cloak and worse, they'd prevent your macks warping out. Spectacularly silly.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Yeesh. It surprises me the amount of effort being put it, to not put any effort in. You just can't help the people who refuse to attempt to defend themselves.


I leave the system. That's more effort than the AFK cloaker is putting in. What dumb game design. You want to run the industry level down? Put a fleet in the system. That would take effort.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#638 - 2013-07-22 23:54:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Also, I love your logical fallacy that a cloaker is completely untouchable.


That's not a logical fallacy. As long as he's cloaked at his safe, he's untouchable. I don't think you can argue with that.


He also cannot do a damn thing to you in that circumstance either. You can't argue with that.

Putting drag/uncloak bubbles around a asteroid field? Nah, that's too hard, let's just pack up and move to another system that we had indy level 5 at...

Yeesh. It surprises me the amount of effort being put it, to not put any effort in. You just can't help the people who refuse to attempt to defend themselves.



drop a few decloaking cans..


Heck.. mine in a skiff vice a hulk/mack.. damn thing can fit a beast of a tank, and has plenty of room for ecm burst, ecm drones, and maybe even a point of your own to trap something while your buds come to the rescue. Sure.. you might die, but your guys will get someone. Heck, one of the most fun fights my corp had was "rescuing" a miner who got careless. (just not careless enough to call for help when he realized he needed it and having the tools to actually keep the enemy on the field long enough). He lost his indy ships, but the fleet still came out positive on the isk balance in the end
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#639 - 2013-07-22 23:55:03 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:

Yes, the thing is, there's nothing you can do as a defender. That's the beauty of cloaking. You make yourself vulnerable whenever you jump. And if you don't jump, there's nothing anyone can do about you.


You have been provided with numerous things you can do as a defender. I suppose it's easier and requires less effort for you to just stamp your feet and play the victim hoping CCP will save you.

The only time a cloaker can do anything to you other than play on your fears is when they decloak and thus risk themselves. When they are cloaked they pose no real risk whatsoever.

I get it, you probably pay a lot to rent your system and had the expectation that it would be safe. Or, if you are not renting, your fail corp/alliance is not capable of doing the needful. Sucks to be you, but you still have not stated exactly what is broken about cloaking. Afk or not is irrelevant because the issue here is that you want to know a pilots intentions and CCP cannot give that to you.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#640 - 2013-07-22 23:57:53 UTC
Soko99 wrote:

You make more in bounty and just ratting anoms in null, than you do in a c2-4.


Rubbish. It's about 16-20m per tick depending on the anom. Nanoribbons don't drop in null.