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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#41 - 2013-07-19 10:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Tippia wrote:

There are plenty of ways to defend against it, and since it is itself a counter to a rather broken mechanic, the solution is not to introduce any kind of counter-counter, but to fix the root cause: the aforementioned broken mechanic.


Care to share some of the ways to counter it?

Specifically with the case of where they happen not there when you do anything, and then show up later.




Just to be clear: Yes, I agree that local isn't a good thing. Some intel method should exist, preferably tied to sov in some fashion. I do think that if you're active in space, regardless of cloak or not, you should be findable. It's just a matter of how hard it is to find you. I have a blog post on it.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Alicia Aishai
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-07-19 10:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alicia Aishai
Lucas Kell wrote:


Uhhhh what?

You realise the game mechanics are completely different from the way they used to be thanks to player feedback right? People saying what they do like, don't like and what they wish could be change the way the game is developed.

In this instance they are asking for a way to defend against cloaking, as currently a guy with an empty character slot can sit logged in in a system completely safe from any form of detection while having a negative effect on the players in that system. note that most people aren't asking for cloak to be removed, only to make it possible to defend against it.



You need to differentiate 3 types of player suggestions:
1) adding new functionality
2) fixed obviously broken mechanics that hurt everyone
3) whining to change the game in their favor

yes AFK cloaking is breaking the game! Thousands of ship fall prey of the deadly cloakers every day. OMG Eve is gonna end!

So... the cloaking complains are clearly category 3:

whine ... whine ... whine...
there is an AFK cloaker in my system and I want to kill him
whine ... whine ... whine...

You note the disconnect between the problem you highlight "being safe in a system cloaked for an extended period of time" and the solution "let's make them detectable so we can go and kill them".
Interestingly you don't suggest solution such as (1) cloak falling away after 1 hour of AFK or (2) create a [5 minutes] cool down on agression or cyno after uncloaking

What people take is the perspective of the guys who just want to be able to kill the cloakers, they don't really think any further in terms of implication and balance, and which play styles are damaged.
People complain about hot drop and cloaked falcons, but the hidden motive is that that they want is block the ability to scout and more generally want more control over their systems.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2013-07-19 11:04:42 UTC
Cloaking is the best game mechanic there is.

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2013-07-19 11:06:05 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Care to share some of the ways to counter it?
1. Shoot him.
2. Counter-AFK him.
3. Check if he's moving around.
4. Just ignore him.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#45 - 2013-07-19 11:19:09 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:

yes AFK cloaking is breaking the game! Thousands of ship fall prey of the deadly cloakers every day. OMG Eve is gonna end!


According to killboards, quite a lot of players die to cloaky hot-droppers quite often, yes. No, I can't take one on because I don't know if he's going to drop 10 other players on top of me when I engage.

Alicia Aishai wrote:

Interestingly you don't suggest solution such as (1) cloak falling away after 1 hour of AFK or (2) create a [5 minutes] cool down on agression or cyno after uncloaking


Personally I've suggested just this. It's either/or. Either make cloaking use fuel (I don't care how slowly it uses it within reason, but it should use some), or make cloaking in a system gradually start to show a sig, very small at first but gradually increasing to something scannable. Make the cloaker have to move every few hours or something to recharge his cloak sig back to zero.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#46 - 2013-07-19 11:19:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
If there was a proper roam gang...

...catch a half damaged missioner....

....undefended miner.

.... forced into combat ....


Awooooga.
Alicia Aishai
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-07-19 11:22:25 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:


Alicia Aishai wrote:

Interestingly you don't suggest solution such as (1) cloak falling away after 1 hour of AFK or (2) create a [5 minutes] cool down on agression or cyno after uncloaking


Personally I've suggested just this. It's either/or. Either make cloaking use fuel (I don't care how slowly it uses it within reason, but it should use some), or make cloaking in a system gradually start to show a sig, very small at first but gradually increasing to something scannable. Make the cloaker have to move every few hours or something to recharge his cloak sig back to zero.


And this is a perfectly reasonable and constructive solution. But unfortunately, I don't see that coming from many people
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2013-07-19 11:27:23 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:
And this is a perfectly reasonable and constructive solution. But unfortunately, I don't see that coming from many people
That's because it will either have no effect on AFK cloakers (which aren't a problem to begin with) or it will break parts of the game where cloaking is very important (e.g. W-space).

The main problem is that all those suggestions never go after the actual problem at hand, but rather a completely different, almost irrelevant mechanic.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-07-19 11:52:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
(which aren't a problem to begin with)


This is nonsense. Want to empty a system? Just sit a cloaked red alt in it for 23 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Tippia wrote:

or it will break parts of the game where cloaking is very important (e.g. W-space).


You can't hot-drop in W-space.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#50 - 2013-07-19 12:03:18 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:

You note the disconnect between the problem you highlight "being safe in a system cloaked for an extended period of time" and the solution "let's make them detectable so we can go and kill them".
Interestingly you don't suggest solution such as (1) cloak falling away after 1 hour of AFK or (2) create a [5 minutes] cool down on agression or cyno after uncloaking

I in fact haven't offered any solutions. I'm just fed up of every thread that is anti-cloak being immediately filled with trolls claiming the null players are carebears, when the real issue is the cloaker is refusing to fight. I'm unaffected by it as most of what I do in null is trade and fleet PvP, so a cloaker has no impact on me whatsoever.

Tippia - I think you are misunderstanding the core issue.
In null people rat and mine. That's how null works, the same as everywhere else. The problem is, a cloaker is completely immune to being found unless he wants to be found, which means he decides everything about the fight. You can threaten him, and fill the systems with combat ships as much as you want, and nothing will change. He won't come out unless he is 100% sure he can kill his target and get away, so that is a miner or a ratter.
If the cloakers actually had the balls to fight then there would be very few complaint about the mechanic.
So in short, if the cloaker chooses not to fight he's completely and utterly immune to all forms of action. No matter how much you want to blame the null player for not trying hard enough.

For those that want to change the system though, the best thing to do is dedicate your offline time to adding another cloaker to another system. Once every system in null has a cloaked camper all day every day, the system will change.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#51 - 2013-07-19 12:40:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

In null people rat and mine. That's how null works, the same as everywhere else.


Yes, the same as everywhere else. Problem is: everywhere else people do not claim they have to be in a 100% blue and safe system to undock and do their business.

Come in low, stay cloacked 24/7 and see if anyone give a ****.

People in null already have far too many systems to lock and secure their systems with almost zero effort and zero risks, THIS should be nerfed.

People wanting to nerf or remove cloacking gameplay simply want to have further more control and safety than what they already have (and is too much). And they want to remove any alternative (to their own) gameplay.

The fact that players asking for this are just a very small and specific minority simply prove the problem are not the game mechanics but that specific subset of players.
Hemmo Paskiainen
#52 - 2013-07-19 12:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen
uncertainty > one of the basic feelings that people make feel uncomfortable.

You play a game to relax yeah? That feeling is the opposite ... so it creates a negative admosphere that manifest differantly per person > basic fleeling = uncomfortable

  • Angre
  • Rage
  • Displesantness

ect etc will compulse into weird actions of which the most funny ones are the range in local which gives the "afk'r' a feeling of dominance = some ppl getting off on.

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#53 - 2013-07-19 13:02:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Care to share some of the ways to counter it?
1. Shoot him.
2. Counter-AFK him.
3. Check if he's moving around.
4. Just ignore him.



1: Shooting a cloaked person. a trifle difficult.
3: working out where a cloaked person is. A trifle difficult.

2: counter afk him? you mean sit in space and do nothing? Which is entirely his goal?

4: hardly a counter.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-07-19 13:04:40 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:

Come in low, stay cloacked 24/7 and see if anyone give a ****.


There's a reason why hardly anybody mines and rats in low sec. When you work out why that is, you will understand what the problem is with AFK cloaking in null sec.

And just FYI, holding sov and maintaining null infrastructure is not free.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#55 - 2013-07-19 13:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Steve Ronuken wrote:

4: hardly a counter.


Just keep doing your business. Mining, ratting, missions, annomalies... whatever. And yes, you're doing it esposed to some risk, yes, sometime you'll be hotdropped and will loose a ship in an unfair fight. But, guess what, the rest of New Eden already used to deal with this; dunno why this null-bear minority expect to be a special snowflake.

But 99% of the time you win, cause he will be AFK. 99% of the time you'll dock with your loot, and since you're not searching for PVP each time you dock with your loot you "win".

And sorry if 1 out of 100 someone else "win" and have a chance to play the game too.

What is absurd here (and need to be fixed) is that the only way to kill a miner or a ratter is to put all this effort: a cloacked ship for hours, a cyno, a gang of strategic csuisers and bombers hotdropping from the other side of the universe....

Change the system so it's less easy and trivial to secure null sec and hotdrops will go, and you'll see more people coming just in HAC instead. And you'll be more happy becuase.. hey, what you want is just a chance to fight, right? :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#56 - 2013-07-19 13:35:08 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
(which aren't a problem to begin with)


This is nonsense. Want to empty a system? Just sit a cloaked red alt in it for 23 hours a day, 7 days a week.


So.... because people react inappropriately, and behave like morons, the cloak mechanics are broken?

That dog won't hunt.

The only problem with "afk" cloaking is the reaction people have to it. If I decide that I simply do not want to ever engage in pvp while there is a logi ship in system, that is MY FAULT. And if you decide to stop playing the game because someone is in your system, and you think they are cloaked and afk, that is YOUR FAULT.

But people don't like to take responsibility for their own behavior. Coincidentally, those people also like to come onto the forums and whine for CCP to change something they could fix themselves, but don't like how they have to do it.

A truly afk pilot never killed anyone. End of story.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-07-19 13:40:38 UTC
Miilla wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Who doesn't fear the unkown? Some might not, but most will. That fear often breeds hate.


W-space is space done right.

we need that moved out to all systems, delayed local, anomoly effects on ships and so on.

Make Eve a more Dynamic place.


More space, more types of anomolies and objects. Pockets of lowsec in the middle of hisec, some new nullsec that is out of range of every low and nullsec system currently existing, more stuff.. lots more stuff...


Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#58 - 2013-07-19 14:06:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

So.... because people react inappropriately, and behave like morons, the cloak mechanics are broken?


The appropriate way to deal with a hot-dropper is to leave the system. Presenting potential targets so they can keep their killboard ticking over only encourages them to stick around and come back in future. Sometimes you have to empty the system for days on end, losing the industry level in the process. All because of 1 cloaky red in your system. Does that sound like a balanced mechanic to you? No. Me neither.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

The only problem with "afk" cloaking is the reaction people have to it. If I decide that I simply do not want to ever engage in pvp while there is a logi ship in system, that is MY FAULT. And if you decide to stop playing the game because someone is in your system, and you think they are cloaked and afk, that is YOUR FAULT.


Dumb paragraph is dumb. I don't have an array of options. The single cloaked hot-dropper makes all the decisions. The only decision I can make is to leave the system or stay in the system.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

But people don't like to take responsibility for their own behavior. Coincidentally, those people also like to come onto the forums and whine for CCP to change something they could fix themselves, but don't like how they have to do it.


OK, you're a bit thick and don't understand what the OP is talking about.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

A truly afk pilot never killed anyone. End of story.


At this point I'm thinking you're a high-sec noob or a cloaky hot-dropper alt.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#59 - 2013-07-19 14:07:34 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Care to share some of the ways to counter it?
1. Shoot him.
2. Counter-AFK him.
3. Check if he's moving around.
4. Just ignore him.



1: Shooting a cloaked person. a trifle difficult.
3: working out where a cloaked person is. A trifle difficult.

2: counter afk him? you mean sit in space and do nothing? Which is entirely his goal?

4: hardly a counter.


1. This method only works if he just so happens to be not-afk. The counter is letting him know you are not intimidated and are quite ready to eff his ess up if he choses to show his pretty face.

2. This is more of a mockery of you, simply put. Honestly I found it humorous.

3. Is he changing systems? Does he have probes out? Is he actively hunting? This is good intel.

4. A perfectly good counter, as it effectively takes away the one tool the afk-cloaker actually has at his disposal: fear. With the simple act of ignoring him you have destroyed all he had hoped to accomplish.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Elian Troller
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-07-19 14:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Elian Troller
double post