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So why do people hate cloaking?

First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#401 - 2013-07-21 22:49:25 UTC
Quote:
i havent partially yielded anything. ive said over and over the players reaction is what gives afk cloakers power. but you cant change them as i said above. so the system has to change or null stays dead.


The system does not have to change because of their failure to play the game correctly. The system does not need to change to reward failure.

Null is far from dead, for starters. It's dead for the Joe Blow Wannabe Rebel Alliance fools, who would like to take sov with 15 guys. But if you actually have friends? No, null is fine, it just needs more industrial opportunities.

The correct course of action, is for the people who are having such trouble in null that a solitary player in a frigate, who might be afk, and thus completely able to effect them in any real way, drives them out of the game, is to go back to highsec. They cannot take the heat, to quote an old axiom, so they need to get out of the kitchen.

In the process, more null space might be opened up for people who will actually grow a pair and use it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#402 - 2013-07-21 22:49:53 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:

yes! it is a problem with the player!
ive said this over and over please dear god read before you post.
you cant change the players though, so null will remain dead. so either go convince null players to not be cowards or find another way to make them feel more secure so they will actually be undocked when your hunting them.


How exactly does that work? Everytime I've ever shown up in a ship they can see they run. I mean, this is literally the crux of the problem: they've been given a tool that without the uncertainty of a cloaked player provides a 100% surefire way to tell when to dock and go afk until it leaves. Having an uncertainty there will cull the weak, and if null remains empty so be it. EvE's playerbase continues to grow, slowly more worthy players will fill the void.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#403 - 2013-07-21 22:50:31 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
"null players are cowards" which we already know. and nothing will change that, so they need to be given more of a reason to undock.


CCP gave the players the tools already (if you believe EVE is a sandbox), it's up to the players to use those tools. It's not up to CCP to intervene on behalf of the risk averse they can and will be replaced.

What's that axiom again... risk vs. reward?

so what tool do you have for finding out if a cloaker is afk?
ccp add and change tools all the time to help players accomplish different tasks. this is no different.


What tool do you use to determine if someone in station is afk?

The problem isn't afk or not. the problem is fear and entitlement and depending on local as an intelligence tool.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#404 - 2013-07-21 22:53:17 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:
Alaekessa wrote:
I <3 cloaking, I can't wait until we get more than a spawn cloak in Dust.

I wonder if anyone **cough**Cat Merc**cough** will make a pro cloaking thread on the Dust forums.

cloaking is fine and afk cloakign wouldnt affect dust.
tbh, i dont even mind that afk cloaking exists.
i just hate that null is so empty because half the systems have an afk cloaker keeping them empty. its hearbreaking to go 40 jumps not null and not see a single ship on d-scan to play with.



There it is again. Thinking emotionally rather than rationally.

AFK cloaking has nothing to do with null being "empty". The lack of Concord does, because most gamers are to pansy to risk losing anything thus taking a hit to their fragile egos. The only way to fill up null sec without destroying what EVE online is is for CCP to find more fearless "screw it, this is just a game" players and make them sub lol.

Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#405 - 2013-07-21 22:58:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:

like i said many times it really doesnt matter where the problem lies with the player or the game. the only thing that matters is effect. the effect is that its pointless to roam null cos its empty, so a massive portion of space is just empty of players. the effect is what needs to be changed. it wont change if your response is simply "deal with it" since they wont "deal with it" they'll just keep docking and leaving the space empty.


This is exactly wrong. And i mean in lots of ways lol. We went roaming in Providence today and got some kills, so that part you said about roaming is demonstratably untrue.

But the big part is that it doesn't matter where the "problem" comes from. That's wrong. where the problem comes from is ALL that matters.

If the problem is with the game, it's wrong and should be changed. If the problem is from the players, the game should not be changed to cater to bad people, rather, the players should change.

They won't of course, but oh well. Changing a game that works so that people who can't stand the loss of imaginary spaceships is the most pitiful thing I could think of.

On top of all that, it jsut doesn't work. CCP has made many changes aimed at getting people to fight more or move around more or do whatever. It NEVER works (like the anom nerf that was supposed to spur conflcit but just ended up sending people to PVE in high sec lol).

Learn to leave well enough alone. EVE online works as is.

so most of null isn't dead? i better go tell everyone cos thats what is being said. the blobs use it because it has moons and thats about it is the story. but you say its not, so theres no problem there.

i doesn't matter where the problem comes from though. the effect matters. the effect is null is dead. the cause is null sec players are cowards. it would be great if that would change. but it wont. null needs either less risk or more reward for the little guy, without affecting the blobs. since more reward affects blobs, then to me the soltuin is decrease risk. in this case, its only the appearance of risk that would change, and no active players would be negatively affected by it. so out of all the changes being suggested, i think this one is the one with the least amount of collateral damage.


Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#406 - 2013-07-21 23:01:12 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
"null players are cowards" which we already know. and nothing will change that, so they need to be given more of a reason to undock.


CCP gave the players the tools already (if you believe EVE is a sandbox), it's up to the players to use those tools. It's not up to CCP to intervene on behalf of the risk averse they can and will be replaced.

What's that axiom again... risk vs. reward?

so what tool do you have for finding out if a cloaker is afk?
ccp add and change tools all the time to help players accomplish different tasks. this is no different.


What tool do you use to determine if someone in station is afk?

The problem isn't afk or not. the problem is fear and entitlement and depending on local as an intelligence tool.

dont be so stupid. i dont use a tool to see if they are afk. i would use the guest window to see if they are docked and make sure they stay that way. since i tend to be the hunter rather than the huntee though, so i dont tend to care much about docked players. and i stick to low sec where the population is.
the problem is that null bears will stay docked if the system is camped. the cause is a bunch of people not playing the game ensuring they stay camped all the time.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#407 - 2013-07-21 23:01:59 UTC
Sort of like how welfare has minimal collateral damage, right?

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#408 - 2013-07-21 23:03:59 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:

dont be so stupid. i dont use a tool to see if they are afk. i would use the guest window to see if they are docked and make sure they stay that way. since i tend to be the hunter rather than the huntee though, so i dont tend to care much about docked players. and i stick to low sec where the population is.
the problem is that null bears will stay docked if the system is camped. the cause is a bunch of people not playing the game ensuring they stay camped all the time.


Do you even read what you write? If you are willing to be vigilant enough to hawkeye a guest window then you can sure as hell watch your overview for a ship decloaking.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
#409 - 2013-07-21 23:06:05 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
Alaekessa wrote:
I <3 cloaking, I can't wait until we get more than a spawn cloak in Dust.

I wonder if anyone **cough**Cat Merc**cough** will make a pro cloaking thread on the Dust forums.

cloaking is fine and afk cloakign wouldnt affect dust.
tbh, i dont even mind that afk cloaking exists.
i just hate that null is so empty because half the systems have an afk cloaker keeping them empty. its hearbreaking to go 40 jumps not null and not see a single ship on d-scan to play with.



There it is again. Thinking emotionally rather than rationally.

AFK cloaking has nothing to do with null being "empty". The lack of Concord does, because most gamers are to pansy to risk losing anything thus taking a hit to their fragile egos. The only way to fill up null sec without destroying what EVE online is is for CCP to find more fearless "screw it, this is just a game" players and make them sub lol.



I somewhat agree with you, though the AFK cloakers who are just fishing for their BlOps-dropping overlords are just allowing their overlords to be pansies as much as those who cower in Empire. It isn't just a lack of CONCORD, it is a lack of power for the little guy if you ask me.

Yes, I understand that Eve is an MMO and that it stands to reason that more == better in terms of the 0.0 zerg rush. However, there is a place (or rather there should be a place) for large numbers of independent small groups. In my humble experience in 0.0, this isn't true, it is simply a game of numbers; whoever can get the larger number of people the furthest distance will prevail.

Sadly, Feudal Logistics > all.
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#410 - 2013-07-21 23:07:44 UTC
too many posts to quote. I'm gonna be going to bed shortly too. but the responses based around getting new players for jnull, best of luck with that one.

jenn, again emotions are what games are designed to bring out. the right emotions create subs, the wrong emotions lose subs. most people dont play a game to sit around being rational. if you look over the history of eve you will see its filled with emotional responses to ccps thoughts and actions and thats had a massive impact on the game. maybe thats the problem. maybe you guys are thinking with your rational heads and dont see that this kind of thing has a negative emotional effect. rationally yes, players should just stop beign cowards and play the damn game, but sayign that doesnt help in any way.
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#411 - 2013-07-21 23:10:51 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:

dont be so stupid. i dont use a tool to see if they are afk. i would use the guest window to see if they are docked and make sure they stay that way. since i tend to be the hunter rather than the huntee though, so i dont tend to care much about docked players. and i stick to low sec where the population is.
the problem is that null bears will stay docked if the system is camped. the cause is a bunch of people not playing the game ensuring they stay camped all the time.


Do you even read what you write? If you are willing to be vigilant enough to hawkeye a guest window then you can sure as hell watch your overview for a ship decloaking.

do you even read what i write? you seem to be responding to me like i am a null ratter. i do not rat. i run pi in low sec and the rest of the time i small ship pvp in low or wh.
that said, yes, people could watch the overview. but they wont. an undocked ship in local is a threat to them, so they dock. and afk cloakers keeps them docked 23/7. a docked ratter is a wasted potential kill.
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#412 - 2013-07-21 23:13:30 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Sort of like how welfare has minimal collateral damage, right?

this is beyond ridiculous. clearly designed to try to disprosve my statement by likening ti to something ridiculous.
collateral damage of the ability to track down afk cloakers is that people that log in but dont actually play no longer have an effect on null. end of collateral damage.
so no, not sort of like welfare at all.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#413 - 2013-07-21 23:14:02 UTC
Quote:
it is a lack of power for the little guy if you ask me.


Confirming that having friends is overpowered. There are plenty of things the little guy can do. But that's not what nullsec is about. Nullsec is about sovereignty, and that means numbers and organization.

Lowsec is much more about the little guy. But so long as highsec is superior in almost every way...

Quote:
most people dont play a game to sit around being rational


Considering that EVE has been, and rightly so imo, called "Spreadsheets Online", it's not for "most people". It's a niche mmo, always has been. In fact, I am truly glad that "most people" don't like EVE. I find "most people" to be absurd,, crude, caricature like imitations of what gamers used to be. I detest them.

Quote:
maybe you guys are thinking with your rational heads and dont see that this kind of thing has a negative emotional effect. rationally yes, players should just stop beign cowards and play the damn game, but sayign that doesnt help in any way.


I do see that it has a negative emotional effect. I just don't care.

Yes, they should stop being cowards. But haters gonna hate, whiners gonna whine, and cowards gonna flee. What the right answer is does not change just because they don't like the answer. It's TS for them. And that's the way it should be.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#414 - 2013-07-21 23:18:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
it is a lack of power for the little guy if you ask me.


Confirming that having friends is overpowered. There are plenty of things the little guy can do. But that's not what nullsec is about. Nullsec is about sovereignty, and that means numbers and organization.

Lowsec is much more about the little guy. But so long as highsec is superior in almost every way...

Quote:
most people dont play a game to sit around being rational


Considering that EVE has been, and rightly so imo, called "Spreadsheets Online", it's not for "most people". It's a niche mmo, always has been. In fact, I am truly glad that "most people" don't like EVE. I find "most people" to be absurd,, crude, caricature like imitations of what gamers used to be. I detest them.

Quote:
maybe you guys are thinking with your rational heads and dont see that this kind of thing has a negative emotional effect. rationally yes, players should just stop beign cowards and play the damn game, but sayign that doesnt help in any way.


I do see that it has a negative emotional effect. I just don't care.

Yes, they should stop being cowards. But haters gonna hate, whiners gonna whine, and cowards gonna flee. What the right answer is does not change just because they don't like the answer. It's TS for them. And that's the way it should be.

well most eve players arent all rational. a lot of you like to think you are but really you are not. just look at the reaction to aurum and tell me that was rational. or the "you crashed my node" threadnaught. yeah... super rational.

ok, so you don't care. fair enough. you are happy for null to remain dead. others arent. thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. you arent however in a position to say how it "should be" or what is the "right answer".
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#415 - 2013-07-21 23:23:22 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:

that said, yes, people could watch the overview. but they wont.


So what makes you think they will hawkeye the guest list in station for hours? How is one so drastically different from the other?

Quote:

this is beyond ridiculous. clearly designed to try to disprosve my statement by likening ti to something ridiculous.
collateral damage of the ability to track down afk cloakers is that people that log in but dont actually play no longer have an effect on null. end of collateral damage.
so no, not sort of like welfare at all.


No, its exactly like it because it provides a perfect safety net and allows people to use it as a crutch. IF that's what gets more players into null I wouldn't want them.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#416 - 2013-07-21 23:23:27 UTC
Quote:
well most eve players arent all rational. a lot of you like to think you are but really you are not. just look at the reaction to aurum and tell me that was rational. or the "you crashed my node" threadnaught. yeah... super rational.

ok, so you don't care. fair enough. you are happy for null to remain dead. others arent. thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. you arent however in a position to say how it "should be" or what is the "right answer".


You mistake righteous anger for the misplaced, self inflicted agony of people complaining about something they could fix if they put the work in, but just don't want to.

Anger at Aurum, which was a drastic departure from both the original design of EVE, but also what the playerbase had been told about the feature? Justified.

Anger at "node not found", which is literally not getting the service they paid for? Justified.

Anger about not wanting to play like you live in nullsec, because they think they should be a special snowflake? Entirely unjustified.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#417 - 2013-07-21 23:30:43 UTC
I really admire you folks for the effort you put trying to bring logic and arguments and sense. However I'm afraid is all pointless.
The arguments you're trying to counter are too solid and strong.

What one could say whent the other side's line of reasoning is like:

"This thing (cloacking) creates fear in my soul. The fear cause me to undock. So this thing prevent people to undock" how can one deals with this granitic logic? And:

"what? 99% of players are perfectly fine with that thing (cloaciking), and also consider it fun and useful? Who cares about the others? We're talking about ME, don't go off topic" .

Or:

"The rality doesn't match my percpetion of it and my personal feelings? Of course the reality is wrong and have to be fixed"


Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#418 - 2013-07-21 23:31:41 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:

that said, yes, people could watch the overview. but they wont.


So what makes you think they will hawkeye the guest list in station for hours? How is one so drastically different from the other?

i dont know but its beside the point. the question was what tool is available. i answered. end of adventure. im not going to get into the nitty gritty of what null sec carebears can and cant do with their time. the tool is there for them to use, as is camping the undock. there is no such tool for afk cloaking.
Kijo Rikki wrote:

Quote:

this is beyond ridiculous. clearly designed to try to disprosve my statement by likening ti to something ridiculous.
collateral damage of the ability to track down afk cloakers is that people that log in but dont actually play no longer have an effect on null. end of collateral damage.
so no, not sort of like welfare at all.


No, its exactly like it because it provides a perfect safety net and allows people to use it as a crutch. IF that's what gets more players into null I wouldn't want them.

no its not exactly the same, because the cost of welfare is high to everyone. an equivalent eve part of welfare would be if we all paid a tax that was divided amongst ratters and miners that had to dock to compensate them for loss of earnings. the only people affected by being able to find afk cloakers is afk cloakers, and as you guys keep pointing out they are afk, so this just means they are logged out rather than in and afk.

at this point it really seems like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, since you pick on every point and repeatedly hammer at it. i get it. you think you are right and i am wrong. i disagree. you will not change my stance and i will not change yours. but add something constructive rather than simply saying "you are wrong" repeatedly. dear lord you must be a nightmare to live with.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#419 - 2013-07-21 23:35:56 UTC
Alaekessa wrote:


Yes, I understand that Eve is an MMO and that it stands to reason that more == better in terms of the 0.0 zerg rush. However, there is a place (or rather there should be a place) for large numbers of independent small groups. In my humble experience in 0.0, this isn't true, it is simply a game of numbers; whoever can get the larger number of people the furthest distance will prevail.




There are these magical places called NPC systems, where there are NPC corp held stations that anyone can dock in, and they are all over the map, Delve, Curse, Stain, Pure Blind, Great Wildlands etc etc.

There are a LOT of small corporations that live in them.
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#420 - 2013-07-21 23:39:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
well most eve players arent all rational. a lot of you like to think you are but really you are not. just look at the reaction to aurum and tell me that was rational. or the "you crashed my node" threadnaught. yeah... super rational.

ok, so you don't care. fair enough. you are happy for null to remain dead. others arent. thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. you arent however in a position to say how it "should be" or what is the "right answer".


You mistake righteous anger for the misplaced, self inflicted agony of people complaining about something they could fix if they put the work in, but just don't want to.

Anger at Aurum, which was a drastic departure from both the original design of EVE, but also what the playerbase had been told about the feature? Justified.

Anger at "node not found", which is literally not getting the service they paid for? Justified.

Anger about not wanting to play like you live in nullsec, because they think they should be a special snowflake? Entirely unjustified.

lol. yes you could put it any way you want to make it sound right:
anger at aurum, a feature to bring a touch of modern day mmos to eve? entirely unjustified.

anger at node not found, a problem triggered by ccp trying to improve stability and performance during a large fight? entirely unjustified.

anger at the abiltiy of a player that is not at their desk being able to add threat to the system i live in? justified.

see, super easy.
it's your interpretation. its not automatically right just because its yours.

at the end of the day its up to ccp to decide what to change and this whole discussion is simply to show them how much people care. since these threads are pretty much weekly and ive even seen people talking about putting it in the annual questionnaire, it does seem like its a popular issue, so they probably will at least review it when they get to it.