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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#361 - 2013-07-21 21:45:58 UTC
Quote:
i dunno, i've read a lot of these and there have been some good ideas that would not be game breaking. like the probe idea, that would stop people that are afk, but normal cloakers would be fine


That would totally, utterly destroy wormholes. It was suggested by someone who has no clue what they are talking about, and is just whining based off emotion, not cogent thought.

Quote:
another one i saw is a fuel bay that takes really tiny fuel and has about an hour of space, and you can move fuel from cargo to fuel bay with ease, cargo bay can hold like hundreds of hours of fuel. this way youd have to move fuel one an hour. stuff like that i think is a good thing.


Also ruins wormholes. You do realize they are stuck in space when they log off, right? Do you know anything about cloaking devices and their common uses, or are you just responding to the bullshit some of the whiners in this thread are spewing?

Quote:
all the time is stays as it is though people will continue to react the way they do to cloakers, whether thats right or wrong, whether they should man up or not, it will carry on happening, and that just makes null dead for pirating, which is bad.


What you just said is: "We should break the game because the current climate of renters' uber cowardice does not fit with my definition of piracy."

So, basically, you just advocated for the removal of local.

Really, though, the argument all comes down to this. Does the cloaker FORCE people to run away or dock up, or do they respond this way all on their own?

An afk player cannot, by definition, do anything. If he is afk, then he is no threat. If he's not afk, then he is legitimately hunting you. The end.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#362 - 2013-07-21 21:52:27 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
its not because people get killed by afk people, its cos you cant tell if someone is afk or not


And it just eats some players up inside that they can't know what a cloaked player's intentions are.

well yeah absolutely it should just take some effort to eat those people up
im makes being an actual cloaker pointless, you may as well just roll an afk cloakers on an alt account, then go do real pirating with your main that be an actualy cloaked pirate
afk cloakers are worse than afk miners in my eyes, and both need to be fixed
at least afk miners are able to be killed tho
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#363 - 2013-07-21 21:58:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
i dunno, i've read a lot of these and there have been some good ideas that would not be game breaking. like the probe idea, that would stop people that are afk, but normal cloakers would be fine


That would totally, utterly destroy wormholes. It was suggested by someone who has no clue what they are talking about, and is just whining based off emotion, not cogent thought.

Quote:
another one i saw is a fuel bay that takes really tiny fuel and has about an hour of space, and you can move fuel from cargo to fuel bay with ease, cargo bay can hold like hundreds of hours of fuel. this way youd have to move fuel one an hour. stuff like that i think is a good thing.


Also ruins wormholes. You do realize they are stuck in space when they log off, right? Do you know anything about cloaking devices and their common uses, or are you just responding to the bullshit some of the whiners in this thread are spewing?

Quote:
all the time is stays as it is though people will continue to react the way they do to cloakers, whether thats right or wrong, whether they should man up or not, it will carry on happening, and that just makes null dead for pirating, which is bad.


What you just said is: "We should break the game because the current climate of renters' uber cowardice does not fit with my definition of piracy."

So, basically, you just advocated for the removal of local.

Really, though, the argument all comes down to this. Does the cloaker FORCE people to run away or dock up, or do they respond this way all on their own?

An afk player cannot, by definition, do anything. If he is afk, then he is no threat. If he's not afk, then he is legitimately hunting you. The end.

how exactly does it break wormholes?
wormholers need to get ammo and the fuel would be got on the same trip. no idea how you think probes would break it

its got nothing to do with whether or not people are forced to dock up artard. people will dock up or move and that makes null empty, they may as well just scrap null since its only use by massive blobs that can harvest the moon goo, other than that its empty. it doesnt matter if you they they are just carebears or not, the way people react is the way they react, that will never change unless the game does.

again, the last bit is stupid
cos you cant tell who is and who isnt afk so an afk guy is exactly the same as a not afk guy. so afk guys get treated as not afk. which means they are putting no effort in but doing exactly the same as a not afk guy. they cant make it so people flag as afk cos that will break it more, so they have to make it so you can find who is afk actively
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#364 - 2013-07-21 22:01:15 UTC
That what these anti cloak, anti local "it's so simple just do this one thing" people don't get. EVE is a complex interconnected thing. You change one thing, it affects 20 others.

At the end of the the day, it's simply their short sightedness that is the real problem, not afk cloaking. As a PVE player I hated afk cloakers, BUT, begin honest I saw the pros in what they were doing.

-They were helping to control inflation by getting the cowards to dock up

-The existance of AFK cloaking (and it's affect on cowards) shows that the game has "economic warfare tools" for alliances

-The cloaky guy coming in spurs creative players (like me) to find new ways to deal with them (ie "emergent gameplay)

-The fact that cloakies sometimes uncloak and cynos opens up oppurtunities for counter drops (ie even more emergent gameplay)

But the anti people never understand any of this, they simply react emotionally to "that guy in my ratting system that I can't kill". Emotion has no place in game balance discussions.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#365 - 2013-07-21 22:02:14 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
its not because people get killed by afk people, its cos you cant tell if someone is afk or not


And it just eats some players up inside that they can't know what a cloaked player's intentions are.

well yeah absolutely it should just take some effort to eat those people up
im makes being an actual cloaker pointless, you may as well just roll an afk cloakers on an alt account, then go do real pirating with your main that be an actualy cloaked pirate
afk cloakers are worse than afk miners in my eyes, and both need to be fixed
at least afk miners are able to be killed tho


Why should CCP fix something that is not broken solely for the peace of mind of some cowardly players?

The fact is, you can't really tell if someone who is mining is afk or not, or someone in station either. I mean, that afk station guy could undock in a WTF pwnmobile and gank you, or undock and light a cyno (when applicable), so, shut... down... everything...

Game mechanics are not what is affecting these cowardly players, their own fear and feelings of entitlement is.




☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#366 - 2013-07-21 22:08:13 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
its not because people get killed by afk people, its cos you cant tell if someone is afk or not


And it just eats some players up inside that they can't know what a cloaked player's intentions are.


And for some reason they refuse to accept the idea that if you prepare properly, it done'st MATTER what their intentions are lol.

It's because they don't want to learn, they want an external FIX to their internal problem (that problem being their fear and laziness and lack of creativity).
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#367 - 2013-07-21 22:12:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
That what these anti cloak, anti local "it's so simple just do this one thing" people don't get. EVE is a complex interconnected thing. You change one thing, it affects 20 others.

At the end of the the day, it's simply their short sightedness that is the real problem, not afk cloaking. As a PVE player I hated afk cloakers, BUT, begin honest I saw the pros in what they were doing.

-They were helping to control inflation by getting the cowards to dock up

-The existance of AFK cloaking (and it's affect on cowards) shows that the game has "economic warfare tools" for alliances

-The cloaky guy coming in spurs creative players (like me) to find new ways to deal with them (ie "emergent gameplay)

-The fact that cloakies sometimes uncloak and cynos opens up oppurtunities for counter drops (ie even more emergent gameplay)

But the anti people never understand any of this, they simply react emotionally to "that guy in my ratting system that I can't kill". Emotion has no place in game balance discussions.

but afk cloaking take no effort to do, so you are saying that its ok for an element of the game that you yourself are saying has an active impact in the game world to be able to be performed without being at your keyboard? its the equivalent of botting without having to push any keys or move the mouse

Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
its not because people get killed by afk people, its cos you cant tell if someone is afk or not


And it just eats some players up inside that they can't know what a cloaked player's intentions are.

well yeah absolutely it should just take some effort to eat those people up
im makes being an actual cloaker pointless, you may as well just roll an afk cloakers on an alt account, then go do real pirating with your main that be an actualy cloaked pirate
afk cloakers are worse than afk miners in my eyes, and both need to be fixed
at least afk miners are able to be killed tho


Why should CCP fix something that is not broken solely for the peace of mind of some cowardly players?

The fact is, you can't really tell if someone who is mining is afk or not, or someone in station either. I mean, that afk station guy could undock in a WTF pwnmobile and gank you, or undock and light a cyno (when applicable), so, shut... down... everything...

Game mechanics are not what is affecting these cowardly players, their own fear and feelings of entitlement is.

whoever says that claoking is broken is stupid. the problem is that we dont have the tools to separate afk cloakers from non afk cloakers. nothing more. those tools are what is needed to stop people being able to 23/7 camp systems without having to do anything.
like i said it doesnt matter whether you guys think that they are cowards are not, and im sure they dont care either. but if nothing changes about the mechanic, nothing will change about their behaviour and short of blob wars and the occasional afk ratter, null will remain dead. if you are happy with null being dead, fine. 23/7 camping just keeps people docked, and you cant kill them if they are docked. if that didnt exist, you could gate in, warp to them and maybe score a couple of kills before they get away.

and ccp change a lot of stuff to help cowardly players. mjds are a get out of jail free cards for battleships for example. at least sorting out afk cloaking might breathe some sort of life into null as half of it wont be 23/7 camped anymore.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#368 - 2013-07-21 22:13:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
its not because people get killed by afk people, its cos you cant tell if someone is afk or not


And it just eats some players up inside that they can't know what a cloaked player's intentions are.




Bingo.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#369 - 2013-07-21 22:13:32 UTC
Quote:
But the anti people never understand any of this, they simply react emotionally to "that guy in my ratting system that I can't kill". Emotion has no place in game balance discussions.


This bears repeating. An emotional reaction, by definition, is not a logical one. As Dora would say "Let's stop and think!".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#370 - 2013-07-21 22:14:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
its not because people get killed by afk people, its cos you cant tell if someone is afk or not


And it just eats some players up inside that they can't know what a cloaked player's intentions are.


And for some reason they refuse to accept the idea that if you prepare properly, it done'st MATTER what their intentions are lol.

It's because they don't want to learn, they want an external FIX to their internal problem (that problem being their fear and laziness and lack of creativity).

see my previous comment. theres no point banging on and on about how they carebears are doing it wrong. they will keep doing it that way no matter what you say. and as such null will remain dead while they remain docked. if you think you can convince the whole of null to stop docking up then go right ahead and demonstrate this power. if not then why not suggest something that doesnt require changing the mindset of thousands of people that helps null be less dead.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#371 - 2013-07-21 22:16:17 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:

see my previous comment. theres no point banging on and on about how they carebears are doing it wrong. they will keep doing it that way no matter what you say. and as such null will remain dead while they remain docked. if you think you can convince the whole of null to stop docking up then go right ahead and demonstrate this power. if not then why not suggest something that doesnt require changing the mindset of thousands of people that helps null be less dead.



You must not read the forums, null is safer than hi sec (at least when it comes to mining) Lol
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#372 - 2013-07-21 22:17:01 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:

but afk cloaking take no effort to do, so you are saying that its ok for an element of the game that you yourself are saying has an active impact in the game world to be able to be performed without being at your keyboard? its the equivalent of botting without having to push any keys or move the mouse



Like AFK mining? Like AFK hauling? Like AFK ratting which still happens.

EVE online allows a lot of afk or semi afk things. Just because you don't like them don't make them against the rules. I sometimes afk ships from jita to near low sec so i can jump them down to null the next day. Is that also wrong?
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#373 - 2013-07-21 22:17:04 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
But the anti people never understand any of this, they simply react emotionally to "that guy in my ratting system that I can't kill". Emotion has no place in game balance discussions.


This bears repeating. An emotional reaction, by definition, is not a logical one. As Dora would say "Let's stop and think!".

well if you believe this then you dont understand game design. games are designed to cause an emotional response and that emotional response is important to every aspect of game design.

if emotianal responses dont matter then i suppose when everyone reacts with rage if ccp announce pay to win microtransactions, then ccp can just ignore them cos its just not logical.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#374 - 2013-07-21 22:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Rishna Katar wrote:
the problem is that we dont have the tools to separate afk cloakers from non afk cloakers. nothing more.


So then for balance's sake then we need the same for all pilots, including anyone who is docked. Call it an "AFK indicator flag".


See how stupid that sounds? Whether someone is afk or not is irrelevant, the problem here is not knowing someone's intentions, and you cannot fix that via changing a game mechanic. It's only fixed via natural selection.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#375 - 2013-07-21 22:18:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:

but afk cloaking take no effort to do, so you are saying that its ok for an element of the game that you yourself are saying has an active impact in the game world to be able to be performed without being at your keyboard? its the equivalent of botting without having to push any keys or move the mouse



Like AFK mining? Like AFK hauling? Like AFK ratting which still happens.

EVE online allows a lot of afk or semi afk things. Just because you don't like them don't make them against the rules. I sometimes afk ships from jita to near low sec so i can jump them down to null the next day. Is that also wrong?

yes, but afk miners and afk ratters can be found and killed. afk travellers too. they all run a risk by beign afk. afk cloakers do not. im not saying dont let them afk cloak, im saying make it have risk
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#376 - 2013-07-21 22:19:23 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
its not because people get killed by afk people, its cos you cant tell if someone is afk or not


And it just eats some players up inside that they can't know what a cloaked player's intentions are.


And for some reason they refuse to accept the idea that if you prepare properly, it done'st MATTER what their intentions are lol.

It's because they don't want to learn, they want an external FIX to their internal problem (that problem being their fear and laziness and lack of creativity).

see my previous comment. theres no point banging on and on about how they carebears are doing it wrong. they will keep doing it that way no matter what you say. and as such null will remain dead while they remain docked. if you think you can convince the whole of null to stop docking up then go right ahead and demonstrate this power. if not then why not suggest something that doesnt require changing the mindset of thousands of people that helps null be less dead.


I don't care what other people do. I'm not trying to convince people to not dock up, i'm saying that the fact that they do demonstrates a problem with THEM, not the game.

The game provides enough tools, it doesn't need more just because people are to lazy, dumb or entitled to use them.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#377 - 2013-07-21 22:19:35 UTC
What is this nonsense? I love cloaking. In fact pay money to have a character spend the entire month in null AFK while cloaked for poops and giggles.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#378 - 2013-07-21 22:20:26 UTC
It's been said over and over, but I'll try again. It doesn't matter what the intentions of a cloaked player are if you are prepared to deal with it. That really should be the slogan for null-sec: Be ready for anything.

While some think it's not fair that a cloaked player who may not even be at his keyboard should have so much control over what others do, I contend that not only should you be ready for anything at any time even when no hostiles are in system at all, but that it is certainly not fair that the only effort you have to put into defending yourself in nullsec is watching for when a red or neutral pops up in local and bug out. It really shouldn't be that easy for you and no, you don't deserve that much safety in the lucrative but shark infested waters of null.

PS: When you play with a mindset to be ready for anything, it just so happens that an afk player has no control over how you are playing, because you were already playing that way. It's only a problem when the way you want to play is to fully fit your miners for maximum yield or bling out your officer fit ratting ships and sit still and unaligned to safes and even go afk because intelligence tells you there isnt anyone for miles, and as soon as a neut pops up in local you scoot to a safe before he can land.

Honestly, that's what its about. Deny all you want, most simply want greater safety than highsec and reap the rewards of nullsec.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#379 - 2013-07-21 22:21:19 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:

but afk cloaking take no effort to do, so you are saying that its ok for an element of the game that you yourself are saying has an active impact in the game world to be able to be performed without being at your keyboard? its the equivalent of botting without having to push any keys or move the mouse



Like AFK mining? Like AFK hauling? Like AFK ratting which still happens.

EVE online allows a lot of afk or semi afk things. Just because you don't like them don't make them against the rules. I sometimes afk ships from jita to near low sec so i can jump them down to null the next day. Is that also wrong?

yes, but afk miners and afk ratters can be found and killed. afk travellers too. they all run a risk by beign afk. afk cloakers do not.


Not true. afk cloakers can in fact be killed, ways to accomplish that pepper this thread and the dozens of other ones that came before it here


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Rishna Katar
Doomheim
#380 - 2013-07-21 22:21:58 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Rishna Katar wrote:
the problem is that we dont have the tools to separate afk cloakers from non afk cloakers. nothing more.


So then for balance's sake then we need the same for all pilots, including anyone who is docked. Call it an "AFK indicator flag".


See how stupid that sounds? Whether someone is afk or not is irrelevant, the problem here is not knowing someone's intentions, and you cannot fix that via changing a game mechanic. It's only fixed by natural selection.

but a docked player can be identified as docked. afk or not. and that eliminates the threat. you can use the tools of docking and d-scans to moitor that threat. an afk cloaker is completely unidentifiable. it really amazes me that you guys really cant tell the difference between the concepts. maybe im not explaining myself well enough.

ill try to simplify
afk cloakers have no associated risk, have an effect on the gameworld and cannot be identified as no threat, cannot be found and cannot be removed. they can effect the game 23/7 with no effort beyond logging on and clicking once.