EVE General Discussion

Nope. We don't know it is so. We have, in fact, been quite vociferous in the opposite. Knowingly asserting something that is not true is also called lying. Attributing falsehoods to other parties in a debate is argument in bad faith. You have zero credibility. Even if you *were* correct (you are not), you'd still automatically lose the debate on those terms.


That said:

AFK cloaking is, again, a concept invented by Players. That is not game design - That is player initiative. Asserting that a game design that allows player initiative is bad is counter-intuitive, at the least. We understand that you don't believe this, but it is so. EVE is designed specifically to enhance player initiative. That is what makes it special, different, and unique. If you cannot handle player initiative, then you are playing the wrong game. Go find a theme park MMO,

I won't say no to an easy kill, but generally, I prefer challenges. Even when I gank, I give my victims a huge opportunity to get away. Those as won't take it, well, they die. But only because they didn't take the chance I offered them.

I'm currently involved in a lengthy cat-n-mouse with a target that is making life difficult for my guns. When, *if*, I nail him, it will be sweet - Because he *didn't* roll over for me. He is, indeed, successfully making ISK hand-over-fist by using sensible precautions and good tactical thinking. I haven't shut him down - If I could, he'd become desperate, and more likely to take chances. But no - I have to wait for him to make a mistake. Which he will, sooner or later. When he does, *if* I don't make any mistakes, he's cold meat. If I make a mistake, *I'm* cold meat.

Thus, content is generated.

I have read the the thread; one moment you're bragging that you've never been a victim of a hotdrop; the next you're wailing and crying and rending your garments in despair because an unknown +1 cloaky is in your system and that means ALL industry MUST be shut down; and then another moment you're authoritatively stating that most of the hotdroppers you get are force recons and t3s. Even though you've never been hotdropped and you run away immediately and stay docked if any cloaky shows up and this is a problem for you.

That's what I've gotten out of your statements on the subject in this thread. It all seems to contradict itself but at least I have gotten an answer to my original question "Am I missing something?" and that answer is no, I am not missing anything. Thank you for the educational and amusing forum-reading experience.

Nobody is wailing and crying. We're simply debating the issue. There are arguments on both sides. I think mine is compelling. You disagree. That is all.

Also no, I don't remain docked up. I just don't mine or run fleet. I was in PvP fleet this evening and we capped two hot-droppers moving between systems. That's all good and I'm proud of my final blow KM. It's the ones that never move that are the problem. There's no compulsion to move, and there's no way for us to make them move.

"Oh Noooooooooo.... Nullsec isn't safe!!!"

Really?

Actually, yes I do. Have you heard CCP's in-house musical group, Permaband? They glory in this stuff.

Especially as they know there are perfectly viable counters.

Yes. You just never explained how or why it's poor game design. That's the whole problem: you think that because you say it is, it has been explained. Unfortunately, proof by fiat doesn't really work.

Not really, no. You're wailing and crying a whole lot about a problem you are utterly and completely unable to articulate, demonstrate or otherwise prove. You have no arguments other than “I've already said so” (which you've also been utterly and completely unable to demonstrate or prove). You're not debating — you're just stomping your feet and going “no, no no! because I say so.”

So, once more: what is the actual problem? Everything you've said so far points towards it being hot-dropping, not cloaking. How is it bad game design? Everything you've said so far points towards it being excellent design since it allows conflict through other means than weaponry. How does adding fuel to cloaks fix this problem? Nothing so far points towards it doing anything of the kind of since the problem has nothing to do with cloaking (much less being AFK).

Oh, I suppose you've demonstrated that players making bad decisions due to not being able to live with uncertainty is a problem, but that's a player problem and not something the game can (or even should) solve. If anything, the game should have a whole lot more of it…

*checks local.. Checks Dscan.. phew.. I'm safe.. not the prey he's looking for.. :P

Perhaps the problem is NOT the cynos' but people's use of them. Even PvPers are risk adverse and very few will engage in fights they can loose. (those I call REAL PvPers and that's the kind I want to become when I grow up) Thus, if the fight Seems like it could be fair, they don't hotdrop and instead look for easy targets instead. (Funny how that parallels real life where the hunter goes after the weak prey instead of the healthy one that can/could run away). Another problem is that even when engaged in a "fair" fight, if one side gets welped due to a mistake on their part, the immediate response isn't that "We ****** up" but that the other guys ganked us and it was an unfair fight to begin with.

*adendum: When people are bored enough, they're liable to engage in suicidal fleets as well.. Those, can be a lot of fun.

I notice a lot of these points are missing a pretty core part of the issue. That is that someone that is AFK cloaking and someone that is hotdropping are identical, there's no way to tell them apart. sure you can counter If it's just a lone bomber or a small drop team trying to get you, but you need to decide if it is, and the cloaker has to put in the time and effort to coerce you into a situation that you are a target. An AFK cloaker has to put in no effort but generates the same reaction from the target. That's the unfair part.

A lot of you saying that cloaking is fine seem to be under the impression that everyone else is just not trying hard enough to combat it, and that EVE takes effort and is not easy, but then why do you think AFK cloaking is fine? It takes no effort and has a large impact on null. Surely these people should have to put a bit of effort into it too.

This is why I think the solution should be a method of tracking and decloaking a ship, but something that is easily visible and countered by the cloaker by moving off grid. This eliminates afk cloaking but allows active cloakers to remain. Cynos should stay as is.

And example of this is a probe that you launch that takes 10 mins to scan and allows a warp in and decloak of the target. If the target changes grid while scanning it yields no results. If the scan is cancelled, then probes are destroyed. If the prober docks or leaves system the probes are destroyed. The probes show on D-Scan and would cost say 20m for a set (all of which are used in a scan) A fully finished scan has the probes return to the prober. This allows a method of finding an afk cloaker, while not affecting active cloakers, and costs the defending player if they choose to not wait out the 10 minutes for the scan to finish.