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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#281 - 2013-07-19 22:31:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Well, in fairness, I did taint the jury pool a little by letting her read some of your posts on other threads. :P


That's nice dear.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#282 - 2013-07-19 22:32:34 UTC
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:

I thought you said you've never been hot-dropped.



I haven't. Read the thread. I can't be arsed to humour your deliberate ignorance as this seems to be the strategy in common for those who disagree.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#283 - 2013-07-19 22:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kijo Rikki
Victoria Sin wrote:


This is funny. I've had someone give me advice on how not to lose my ship in the same comment in which he said he did lose his (whoops!).


And he told you why....wasn't aligned, whoops!

Quote:

I've had someone boast of running an industry index down to zero just for lolz and isk, with little to no effort on his part and now I've got you trying to argue letting the industry index run down is me "letting it happen", when NOT being risk averse would also be me "letting it happen" every time I lost ships to a hot-drop, which of course is just the cost of doing business for you (or not).


Not letting the afk player run your industry down: going about your business with a big eff ewe

Not letting the afk player blow up your ship: mine aligned, still ships are dead ships. pack ewar drones (i just looked it up, you have 50m3 space, thats plenty for harvesting drones and a flight of ewar drones.

Maybe try hunting the guy.

All of this, has been repeatedly suggested but the only solution good enough for you is to just give up and give them the system, so I guess Op success.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#284 - 2013-07-19 22:33:06 UTC
Mag's wrote:
So do we know yet, what the problem with a cloak actually is?


Nope. Still waiting on the white smoke.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#285 - 2013-07-19 22:34:22 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:

And he told you why....wasn't aligned, whoops!


Yes. What an idiot.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#286 - 2013-07-19 22:35:32 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

And he told you why....wasn't aligned, whoops!


Yes. What an idiot.


But that was the point. By not being aligned he gave them time to "point" out the error of his ways, and through his mistake, you are able to benefit from it.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#287 - 2013-07-19 22:37:26 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

And he told you why....wasn't aligned, whoops!


Yes. What an idiot.


But that was the point. By not being aligned he gave them time to "point" out the error of his ways, and through his mistake, you are able to benefit from it.



A smart man learns from their own mistake, a wise man learns from those of others. (and an idiot doesn't learn at all)
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#288 - 2013-07-19 22:41:05 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
By not being aligned he gave them time to "point" out the error of his ways, and through his mistake, you are able to benefit from it.


I understand the concept of alignment and have done since around 2003. I am always aligned. I am even aligned to my monitor sitting here at my desk. That is not the point. Saying "here's a strategy" to counter an element of poor game design does not change the fact that it's poor game design.

Here's my strategy: don't run mining fleets in systems containing reds. I don't want any of my toons or anyone in fleet to get dropped and capped. It's not good for business.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#289 - 2013-07-19 22:42:48 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:

AFK cloaking is poor game design. You know it. You don't admit it because it's kind-of lolz for you and it's part of your strategy and you don't want to lose it.


Um, for me to "know it" I'd need some evidence which so far you have yet to disclose after being asked repeatedly by myself and others. Just because you say something does not make it so, even if your mom always told you you were a special snowflake.

So I'll ask again, how exactly is this bad game design? Please tell us, or simply link to the answer.

You can't do anything but deflect and evade these questions put to you because you can't prove anything but your own fear of the unknown, you have nothing to back up your position but tears.




☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#290 - 2013-07-19 22:43:54 UTC
Quote:
Saying "here's a strategy" to counter an element of poor game design does not change the fact that it's poor game design.


And constantly saying over and over again that it's poor game design does not make it a fact.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#291 - 2013-07-19 22:49:44 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:

I understand the concept of alignment and have done since around 2003. I am always aligned. I am even aligned to my monitor sitting here at my desk. That is not the point. Saying "here's a strategy" to counter an element of poor game design does not change the fact that it's poor game design.

Here's my strategy: don't run mining fleets in systems containing reds. I don't want any of my toons or anyone in fleet to get dropped and capped. It's not good for business.





Go mine in your less lucrative system then, let the opponent win. Then make bad suggestions to fix something that isn't really a problem if you would take the time out of your day to creatively come up with a solution that is already available to you. I've already told you what happens to your solution. Not all ideaas are good ones, for instance, didn't the president just recently sign into law that companies must give benefits to any employee working over 32 hours? What happened? Companies cut employee hours to 24 and hired additional help. Turns out a law designed to help the people actually ended up hurting them more, and this is pretty much what I see with your idea, I mean, I've already thought of how to circumvent it in 5 minutes, and I could very well be overlooking even more devious methods to subvert it.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#292 - 2013-07-19 22:55:48 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:

Go mine in your less lucrative system then, let the opponent win.


Yes, he can win. I couldn't care less. Let me tell you what would be cool though: You want to run down industry level? Take the system with your fleet. That would be nicely balanced by the system owners having a fleet to defend it, with something called a Battle, where people fight and lose ships and one side or the other is victorious in the end. You know what would really suck? If one guy with a cloaked alt could sit in a system and run it down without having to do anything much at all, because nobody wants to mine or run anoms just in case they get dropped. For weeks at a time.

I should work as a game designer.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#293 - 2013-07-19 22:57:48 UTC
Quote:
I mean, I've already thought of how to circumvent it in 5 minutes, and I could very well be overlooking even more devious methods to subvert it.


Oh, you are. She wants to have cloaks be powered by isotopes. I can't even describe how bad of an idea it is to use a finite, already in demand resource (and here's the kicker) that CAN BE INTERDICTED as cloak fuel.

Pretty soon you'd have "cloak cartels".

Nevermind the fact that they can just cyno chain to tag out another cloaker (it would literally take about a minute every time their cargo runs out), or bring a Prowler or something to resupply now and again. Same thing if you made it cost cap, the afk cloakers would have a cyno, a cloak, and the rest of their mods crammed full of cap.

That's one thing I have always found interesting about the miners vs gankers debate. When they suggest something like this, they don't seem to understand something important. The people who want to kill you, or mess up your game? Are WAAAAAY smarter at this than you are, and they collaborate and share methods and tactics way better to boot.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#294 - 2013-07-19 23:00:01 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

Go mine in your less lucrative system then, let the opponent win.


Yes, he can win. I couldn't care less. Let me tell you what would be cool though: You want to run down industry level? Take the system with your fleet. That would be nicely balanced by the system owners having a fleet to defend it, with something called a Battle, where people fight and lose ships and one side or the other is victorious in the end. You know what would really suck? If one guy with a cloaked alt could sit in a system and run it down without having to do anything much at all, because nobody wants to mine or run anoms just in case they get dropped. For weeks at a time.

I should work as a game designer.


We keep going in circles, because I keep suggesting to you to do something about it yourself and you keep telling me one guy can shut you down for weeks and I keep telling you to do something about it and you keep telling me this one guy shut you down for weeks and I keep....

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#295 - 2013-07-19 23:07:21 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:

We keep going in circles.


The reason we keep going in circles is because we disagree and neither is going to change the mind of the other. Neither of us is 100% correct, and neither 100% wrong. It's a question of interpretation, values and how you prefer to play the game. And it is a game, so no hard feelings.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#296 - 2013-07-19 23:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Nevermind the fact that they can just cyno chain to tag out another cloaker (it would literally take about a minute every time their cargo runs out), or bring a Prowler or something to resupply now and again. Same thing if you made it cost cap, the afk cloakers would have a cyno, a cloak, and the rest of their mods crammed full of cap.


Good. You've started thinking about it. The other option is to slowly increase the sig radius from zero to normal, to be reset again by changing system. OK, the guy could log in and out to reset it, but that would be an exploit and I'm pretty sure easy to counter. Not applicable in WH systems of course, which have an "effect" that stops this happening. Then we could, after a while, see enough of a signal to start probing, with a high skilled toon. And who knows, maybe have a chance of catching him.

If he wants to reset it, he has to risk the snowball jumping systems.

There.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#297 - 2013-07-20 00:13:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
That's one thing I have always found interesting about the miners vs gankers debate. When they suggest something like this, they don't seem to understand something important. The people who want to kill you, or mess up your game? Are WAAAAAY smarter at this than you are, and they collaborate and share methods and tactics way better to boot.

Heh, but miners don't cloak while mining.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#298 - 2013-07-20 00:32:48 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I let my wife read the last 5 or so pages of the thread. She just finished it.

Her exact words?

"Sounds to me like they're just being a chickenshit about it."


Argumentum ad Wife's Opinion.


I can't tell if it's a rhetorical thing or if he really goes around ranting to wife/colleagues/friends/ect. about random Eve threads.

"Oh god, he's off his rocker about internet spaceships again; just smile and nod."
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#299 - 2013-07-20 00:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

Seriously, its bad player attitude and mindset. It'n not the games fault you let them shut down all production in system, it is yours.


This player's attitude and mindset is not to give reds easy kills. I've seen plenty that have and it only encourages more hot-dropping and camping.

Fear.
You reek of it.

There is absolutely zero need to be afraid of 'easy kills' if you're paying attention and are willing to be adaptable. But you will not hear this because you have an iron-clad and desperate need to be right (a symptom of weakness. Weakness leads to fear). Hint: Admitting you're wrong is the first step towards real strength. It's also the first step towards being free of fear.

The good advice that has been liberally wasted on you in this thread will not prevent kills. It will, however, bring you to a place of strength where you no long need to allow other players to dictate your course.

There is *always* a player better, stronger, with more resources, or some other fatal advantage over you. Once you accept that, and take steps to reduce those advantages, you will begin to grow. Follow our advice, and If someone wants you out of a system, they'll have to *work* at it, instead of scaring you out by making spooky noises in the attic.

But I'm reasonably certain that you won't take the advice. Instead, you will repeat your thoroughly-discredited whinge yet another time - with the same lack-of-result.
Prove me wrong. I dare you.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#300 - 2013-07-20 00:48:18 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

Seriously, its bad player attitude and mindset. It'n not the games fault you let them shut down all production in system, it is yours.


This player's attitude and mindset is not to give reds easy kills. I've seen plenty that have and it only encourages more hot-dropping and camping.

Fear.
You reek of it.

There is absolutely zero need to be afraid of 'easy kills' if you're paying attention and are willing to be adaptable. But you will not hear this because you have an iron-clad and desperate need to be right (a symptom of weakness. Weakness leads to fear). Hint: Admitting you're wrong is the first step towards real strength. It's also the first step towards being free of fear.

The good advice that has been liberally wasted on you in this thread will not prevent kills. It will, however, bring you to a place of strength where you no long need to allow other players to dictate your course.

There is *always* a player better, stronger, with more resources, or some other fatal advantage over you. Once you accept that, and take steps to reduce those advantages, you will begin to grow. Follow our advice, and If someone wants you out of a system, they'll have to *work* at it, instead of scaring you out by making spooky noises in the attic.

But I'm reasonably certain that you won't take the advice. Instead, you will repeat your thoroughly-discredited whinge yet another time - with the same lack-of-result.
Prove me wrong. I dare you.

You're hoping to turn them into an easy kill, aren't you.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?