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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#201 - 2013-07-19 19:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Victoria Sin wrote:
The problem is Tip's continual inability to understand the other point of view, no-matter how it's articulated.
No. The problem is that you can't answer a simple question.

So, again… what is the problem, specifically? How is it bad game design? How does adding fuel to cloaks address this problem?

Links will suffice.

Quote:
It's simply "I don't think that's a problem. I dismiss it by waving my arms. What was the problem again?".
No. It's simply “what is the problem? If you have already answered it, why can't you show that you have?”

Quote:
We can't de-cloak him. We can't scan him down. We can't effectively do anything until he decides to move.
Skipping the last part since that is blatantly false and nothing other than a choice you make, what's the problem with any of that?

Quote:
One player can do that for a whole system. This happens all the time. It's terrible game design.
No it's not for the simple reason that it is not game design: it's player choice. If you think that this choice so terrible, make another one.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#202 - 2013-07-19 19:49:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

They honestly don't know, because it's fine to question YOUR motives, but not their own.


I would have thought my motives were clear. I want AFK cloaking gimped so that eventually the side "policing" the system can get a crack at finding him.

Your motives are also clear: You're kind-of a care-bear who wants to stay safe behind your cloak.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#203 - 2013-07-19 19:51:12 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
I left system. AFK cloaker is still there. Nobody's using the system. I think about 35 players de-camped somewhere else. He'll probably be there a few weeks. Who knows. We can't de-cloak him. We can't scan him down. We can't effectively do anything until he decides to move. People don't want to sit in fleet 23/7 for a fortnight just in case he decides to show himself. He doesn't have to sit there watching local or directional. He can go and watch Family Guy Monday through Sunday if he wants.

One player can do that for a whole system. This happens all the time. It's terrible game design.

It's also bullshit.

That is all you need to know.



So, the only thing holding you back basically is your fear and unwillingness to put out any effort, and you want CCP to make the bad scary pilot go away so you can carebear without being afraid.


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#204 - 2013-07-19 19:53:14 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:

Yes, CCP put some toys and playsets in thw sandbox, but ultimately, it is up to each and every one of us to decide how to play here. The playground monitors will *not* redesign the sandbox just because *you're* not happy with how others play.


ME? I couldn't care less. I left system. AFK cloaker is still there. Nobody's using the system. I think about 35 players de-camped somewhere else. He'll probably be there a few weeks. Who knows. We can't de-cloak him. We can't scan him down. We can't effectively do anything until he decides to move. People don't want to sit in fleet 23/7 for a fortnight just in case he decides to show himself. He doesn't have to sit there watching local or directional. He can go and watch Family Guy Monday through Sunday if he wants.

One player can do that for a whole system. This happens all the time. It's terrible game design.

It's also bullshit.

That is all you need to know.


No, no, no.
All wrong. The GAME did not force you to leave. YOU did. You left in reaction to how someone else was playing. There are a dozen or more ways you could have turned the situation to your advantage, or neutralized the cloaker, but instead of taking any of the choices which would allow you to continue to use the system, you chose the one answer that forced you to play another PLAYER'S game. This isn't EVE's fault. It's yours. You let yourself be driven off.

Hell, you weren't even violenced. Someone made spooky noises in the attic, and you fled like Scooby and Shaggy in a bad cartoon.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#205 - 2013-07-19 19:54:00 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

So, the only thing holding you back basically is your fear and unwillingness to put out any effort, and you want CCP to make the bad scary pilot go away so you can carebear without being afraid.


Fear? It's just that I'm not an idiot and I don't want to lose my ships by doing stuff with a known red hot-dropper/AFK cloaker in system.

Effort? I would like to put in a similar amount of effort to find the AFK cloaker as he puts in just sitting there. So not very much, yes.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#206 - 2013-07-19 19:57:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:

One player can do that for a whole system. This happens all the time. It's terrible game design.
No it's not for the simple reason that it is not game design: it's player choice. If you think that this choice so terrible, make another one.

Amen.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#207 - 2013-07-19 19:58:16 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Fear?
Yes. You are afraid of losing ships; of being hotdropped; of being attacked when you least suspect it. That's why you shy away from the myriad of methods that lets you go head-to-head with the enemy.

Quote:
Effort? I would like to put in a similar amount of effort to find the AFK cloaker as he puts in just sitting there. So not very much, yes.
That amount of effort is available to you: just keep doing what you're doing, and be ready to strike when the time comes — the same thing he's doing.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#208 - 2013-07-19 19:58:55 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:

One player can do that for a whole system. This happens all the time. It's terrible game design.
No it's not for the simple reason that it is not game design: it's player choice. If you think that this choice so terrible, make another one.

Amen.

Player choices kind of suck when it isn't the choice you wanted them to make eh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#209 - 2013-07-19 19:59:41 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

They honestly don't know, because it's fine to question YOUR motives, but not their own.


I would have thought my motives were clear. I want AFK cloaking gimped so that eventually the side "policing" the system can get a crack at finding him.

Your motives are also clear: You're kind-of a care-bear who wants to stay safe behind your cloak.


What's funny is if you got your way you would cry bloody murder, because one of two things are going to happen: The campers are going to chain in cheap fit cloak ships and continue to camp your system, occasionally sending in something with teeth to keep you on your toes. Nothing on your end is going to change other than being able to destroy the occasional ship with nothing but a cloak and a little fuel on it. Truth is, most of the time if you're being afk camped it's because there is a power struggle going on between your land owners and a rival alliance. They, being adaptable pvp types, will come up with a counter to your solution within hours of the fix going live.

ON the other hand, you may find a ship that stays cloaked, and that can mean only one thing, the guy is obviously not afk. Bricks will be shat. Lol

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#210 - 2013-07-19 20:00:40 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

So, the only thing holding you back basically is your fear and unwillingness to put out any effort, and you want CCP to make the bad scary pilot go away so you can carebear without being afraid.


Fear? It's just that I'm not an idiot and I don't want to lose my ships by doing stuff with a known red hot-dropper/AFK cloaker in system.

Effort? I would like to put in a similar amount of effort to find the AFK cloaker as he puts in just sitting there. So not very much, yes.


So don't undock, or leave your POS if you want little to no effort.

Or, if they are "a known red hot-dropper/AFK cloaker" as you say (a known element) then take the fight to them, and afk cloak one of their systems and bring a hotdrop of your own.

This "problem" only exists in your mind, and it's called fear of uncertainty.



☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#211 - 2013-07-19 20:01:40 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

So, the only thing holding you back basically is your fear and unwillingness to put out any effort, and you want CCP to make the bad scary pilot go away so you can carebear without being afraid.


Fear? It's just that I'm not an idiot and I don't want to lose my ships by doing stuff with a known red hot-dropper/AFK cloaker in system.

Effort? I would like to put in a similar amount of effort to find the AFK cloaker as he puts in just sitting there. So not very much, yes.

Your chioces. not EVE's. Not CCPs. Not the Cloaker's. Yours. Take ownership of your chioces, or you will forever be driven by forces you don't understand. Do not be ashamed of them, but do understand their implications. YOU made a choice. Own up to it. Accept it. Deal with the consequences.

That is how to be good at EVE.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#212 - 2013-07-19 20:03:54 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Nothing on your end is going to change other than being able to destroy the occasional ship with nothing but a cloak and a little fuel on it.


This is why I don't think you know what you're talking about. Most of the hot-droppers we get aren't just ships with a cloak and a little fuel in them. Hot-dropping Force Recon and T3s are common. If they can't cap you, they can cyno in a gang. They decide what to do based on the target.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#213 - 2013-07-19 20:04:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Player choices kind of suck when it isn't the choice you wanted them to make eh.
Well… as the saying goes:

Multiplayer sandbox doesn't mean you can do what you want — it means everyone can do what they want, which includes them doing things (to you) that you don't want them to. Blink

Victoria Sin wrote:
Most of the hot-droppers we get aren't just ships with a cloak and a little fuel in them. Hot-dropping Force Recon and T3s are common. If they can't cap you, they can cyno in a gang. They decide what to do based on the target.
…which, once again, makes it sound like the problem you want to solve has nothing to do with being AFK or cloaking, much less any kind of combination of the two. Hence the question: how does adding fuel to cloaks address this problem?
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#214 - 2013-07-19 20:05:06 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:

One player can do that for a whole system. This happens all the time. It's terrible game design.
No it's not for the simple reason that it is not game design: it's player choice. If you think that this choice so terrible, make another one.

Amen.

Player choices kind of suck when it isn't the choice you wanted them to make eh.
Just something with which to become comfortable - the other player(s) get(s) a choice(s) too, whether we like it or not. Blink
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#215 - 2013-07-19 20:05:12 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Nothing on your end is going to change other than being able to destroy the occasional ship with nothing but a cloak and a little fuel on it.


This is why I don't think you know what you're talking about. Most of the hot-droppers we get aren't just ships with a cloak and a little fuel in them. Hot-dropping Force Recon and T3s are common. If they can't cap you, they can cyno in a gang. They decide what to do based on the target.


You missed the part where I said they will send in the occasional ship with teeth, didn't you?

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#216 - 2013-07-19 20:07:33 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

Or, if they are "a known red hot-dropper/AFK cloaker" as you say (a known element) then take the fight to them, and afk cloak one of their systems and bring a hotdrop of your own.


If I think AFK cloaking is BS, why would I go and AFK cloak someone else? That would be an inconsistent position to hold I think.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#217 - 2013-07-19 20:08:41 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:

You missed the part where I said they will send in the occasional ship with teeth, didn't you?


Again, that's not my experience looking at the KB in the systems we use, no. It might be yours, who knows.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#218 - 2013-07-19 20:09:39 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

Or, if they are "a known red hot-dropper/AFK cloaker" as you say (a known element) then take the fight to them, and afk cloak one of their systems and bring a hotdrop of your own.

If I think AFK cloaking is BS, why would I go and AFK cloak someone else? That would be an inconsistent position to hold I think.

You need to abuse it as much as possible to prove it is broken.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#219 - 2013-07-19 20:10:31 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

You need to abuse it as much as possible to prove it is broken.


That's a good point, but it would still make me a hypocrite and even if you think I'm wrong, I don't see that you can accuse me of that.
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#220 - 2013-07-19 20:11:45 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

Or, if they are "a known red hot-dropper/AFK cloaker" as you say (a known element) then take the fight to them, and afk cloak one of their systems and bring a hotdrop of your own.


why would I go and AFK cloak someone else?


Because it's fun and the tears will fuel your ship for days after you kill a nighthawk with a lowly stealth bomber. Or an Orca. For some reason, that really makes them mad.