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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#181 - 2013-07-19 19:19:28 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

And he pointed out he wasnt aligned, which is one of those points of advice we've been trying to hand to you.


You say you mine with reds in local and that's OK because you're aligned? Absurd. I don't know anyone who does that. When a red comes into local, they GTFO if they're mining or running an anom. How can you come out with the above and keep a straight face?

Now I know you're just trolling me.


Because a red in local that just came through the gate and is most likely scout/interceptor fast tackle that has buddies on the outgate waiting for a bite to jump in is totally different than a red thats been in local for a while.

By the way I do mostly ratting, so I have a choice to fight or flight. I understand a ratters main MO will be flight, and I don't think its stupid to not warp off with a new red in local. But once you establish he's cloaked, regardless if he is afk or is actively hunting, I'm going to go ahead and do my thing, because there is no way in a Mahen hell he is going to decloak and point me before I am gone. Unless I fitted my miner as a bait tank, but then I'd be hunting and somewhat prepared for imminent ship loss.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#182 - 2013-07-19 19:19:50 UTC
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:

I said in my post that I got hot dropped last night ( and died to it.)


Forgive me if I don't take your advice, then.



Heh - and I said why I died. I was not aligned to my safe. Simple as that. Am I here with you arguing to "fix" cloaking? No I am not. The responsibility is on me. I choose to live in null so it is on me to understand how life and death here goes.



Respect.
Cool
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#183 - 2013-07-19 19:21:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and yet you're so unfamiliar with basic mechanics and apparently have problems that newer players have long since solved. Fancy that.


Basic mechanics? What are you talking about? I've never been capped by an AFK cloaker or a hot dropper. Why? Because I don't assume I'm safe because I'm aligned with reds in system. As far as you're concerned, I'm an expert. If I wasn't, like the guy above I'd be losing ships to this bullshit regularly.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#184 - 2013-07-19 19:21:36 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

And he pointed out he wasnt aligned, which is one of those points of advice we've been trying to hand to you.


You say you mine with reds in local and that's OK because you're aligned? Absurd. I don't know anyone who does that. When a red comes into local, they GTFO if they're mining or running an anom. How can you come out with the above and keep a straight face?

Now I know you're just trolling me.


So you know the thousands of people who pve in null sec huh?

You don't know me.

[Typhoon, F yo couch]
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Ballistic Control System II

Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
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EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II
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Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#185 - 2013-07-19 19:29:42 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Basic mechanics? What are you talking about?
The concept of aligning seems to be a bit beyond you, for one…

Quote:
As far as you're concerned, I'm an expert.
No. As far as I'm concerned, you're thoroughly ignorant about everything related to this topic (and possibly EVE in general) since you've offered nothing to even remotely suggest otherwise. As far as I'm concerned, you are also poorly versed in the fundamentals of argumentation since you can't answer questions, provide arguments or supporting evidence, or even explain something as simple as the problem you think you're having.


So, again… what is the problem, specifically? How is it bad game design? We've established that it's not hot-dropping, it's not cloaking, it's not being AFK… what's left? And how does adding fuel to cloaks — the “solution” you're suggesting — address this undefined problem? If any of the above has been answered already, you can trivially answer it with a simple link. If you can't provide that, we can safely conclude that it hasn't been answered already. If you continue to fail to answer this simple question, we can also safely conclude that there is no problem or bad game design.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#186 - 2013-07-19 19:33:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:

.... more BS.


All we've established is that you're probably an AFK-cloaker or a hot-dropper who doesn't want his gameplay gimped.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#187 - 2013-07-19 19:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Victoria Sin wrote:
All we've established is that
…you can't answer a simple question.

So, again… what is the problem, specifically? How is it bad game design? How does adding fuel to cloaks address this problem?

Links will suffice.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#188 - 2013-07-19 19:36:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
All we've established is that
…you can't answer a simple question.

So, again… what is the problem, specifically? How is it bad game design? How does adding fuel to cloaks address this problem?


I've already told you to read the thread. I've articulated what I think the problem is more than once. Your continual failure to read text is becoming quite absurd.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#189 - 2013-07-19 19:37:24 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
You are defending bad game design by pointing out the counters to it, which as we can see from the post above, aren't actually counters, they're just ways of dying slightly less frequently.
Counters don't stop being counters just because they fail occasionally.

He's showing that the game has nice counters designed into it, which is still a sharp contrast to your inability to link, describe, explain, or in any other way show that this supposed bad game design you keep talking about exists.


This counter wasn't "designed into it". Players develop counters (like just going somewhere else) themselves. CCP didn't put much thought into it at all. I've been in game since Beta. I know how it works around here. Things are found to suck or not and then they're either nerfed or changed or left as they are. That is all you need to know.
I'm going to revisit this for a second:

~ You point out that the various mechanisms for making a long life in Null a reasonable probability are player-created, and such, are not part of the 'design.'
~ I will point out that AFK cloaking was ALSO player-invented, and thus not part of the 'design.'
~ You assert that because players have created the game behavior of AFK Cloaking, that it evidence of bad design.
~ *I* assert that your assertion is wrong, and that the fact that players can invent their own mechanics and counters to same, that this is evidecne of superior game design.
~ I further assert that your unwillingness to understand or accept this distinction is due to a fundamental failure to accept that EVE is indeed a sandboox.

Yes, CCP put some toys and playsets in thw sandbox, but ultimately, it is up to each and every one of us to decide how to play here. The playground monitors will *not* redesign the sandbox just because *you're* not happy with how others play.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#190 - 2013-07-19 19:37:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
All we've established is that
…you can't answer a simple question.

So, again… what is the problem, specifically? How is it bad game design? How does adding fuel to cloaks address this problem?

Links will suffice.


They never answer direct questions, I think there are 2 reason:

They know answering will undo their entire argument

or

They honestly don't know, because it's fine to question YOUR motives, but not their own.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#191 - 2013-07-19 19:38:22 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
I've already told you to read the thread. I've articulated what I think the problem is more than once.
Good. Then you can trivially provide links that answer these questions, if copy-pasting is too much of a burden for you.

So, again… what is the problem, specifically? How is it bad game design? How does adding fuel to cloaks address this problem?

Links will suffice.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#192 - 2013-07-19 19:40:13 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Tippia wrote:

.... more BS.


All we've established is that you're probably an AFK-cloaker or a hot-dropper who doesn't want his gameplay gimped.

And what difference would that make? Your dismissive and pointless reaction to her post does not make her wrong. Nor would her being an AFK Cloaker make her wrong, if indeed she were so (I wouldn't know, or care to speculate, either way).
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#193 - 2013-07-19 19:40:15 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

They honestly don't know, because it's fine to question YOUR motives, but not their own.


Wrong. The problem is Tip's continual inability to understand the other point of view, no-matter how it's articulated. It's simply "I don't think that's a problem. I dismiss it by waving my arms. What was the problem again?". It's like debating with someone who's had part of their Hippocampus removed and is no longer able to store short-term memories.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#194 - 2013-07-19 19:43:25 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
All we've established is that
…you can't answer a simple question.

So, again… what is the problem, specifically? How is it bad game design? How does adding fuel to cloaks address this problem?


I've already told you to read the thread. I've articulated what I think the problem is more than once. Your continual failure to read text is becoming quite absurd.


Can you maybe link it for me then? I don't see where you identify what the problem/exploit is exactly, how your "solution" fixes the alleged problem, or specifically how cloaking is bad game design.

If you can only come up with "read the thread" as your answer then you have no leg to stand on and should just concede it's only a perceived problem for YOU.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#195 - 2013-07-19 19:45:43 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Conclusion: You don't want a solution that requires you to ugrade your ability at the game.
Secondary conclusion: You will remain bad at EVE until you throw off the shackles of lazy thinking and cease defending an untenable position.

Much like our (or TEST's) shackles of holding sov.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#196 - 2013-07-19 19:45:52 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:

Yes, CCP put some toys and playsets in thw sandbox, but ultimately, it is up to each and every one of us to decide how to play here. The playground monitors will *not* redesign the sandbox just because *you're* not happy with how others play.


ME? I couldn't care less. I left system. AFK cloaker is still there. Nobody's using the system. I think about 35 players de-camped somewhere else. He'll probably be there a few weeks. Who knows. We can't de-cloak him. We can't scan him down. We can't effectively do anything until he decides to move. People don't want to sit in fleet 23/7 for a fortnight just in case he decides to show himself. He doesn't have to sit there watching local or directional. He can go and watch Family Guy Monday through Sunday if he wants.

One player can do that for a whole system. This happens all the time. It's terrible game design.

It's also bullshit.

That is all you need to know.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#197 - 2013-07-19 19:46:05 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

They honestly don't know, because it's fine to question YOUR motives, but not their own.


Wrong. The problem is Tip's continual inability to understand the other point of view, no-matter how it's articulated. It's simply "I don't think that's a problem. I dismiss it by waving my arms. What was the problem again?". It's like debating with someone who's had part of their Hippocampus removed and is no longer able to store short-term memories.


We get your point.
It's just simply wrong.

Accept that. Embrace it. Get past it. Then you'll be free to change the way you react and maybe learn new ways of thinking.
If you're not willing to open yourself to new thinking, you're going to be stuck. Forever. And that's just no fun.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#198 - 2013-07-19 19:46:33 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

They honestly don't know, because it's fine to question YOUR motives, but not their own.


Wrong. The problem is Tip's continual inability to understand the other point of view, no-matter how it's articulated. It's simply "I don't think that's a problem. I dismiss it by waving my arms. What was the problem again?". It's like debating with someone who's had part of their Hippocampus removed and is no longer able to store short-term memories.



LOL, I spit a little bit of soda out on this one, because Tip proved right, you can't argue worth crap lol.

you do realize i said OR right?

Quote:

They know answering will undo their entire argument

or

They honestly don't know, because it's fine to question YOUR motives, but not their own.


So by quoting what you did you admitted that you know that if you answer Tippia your entire argument will unravel. Point (and Web) for Tippia.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#199 - 2013-07-19 19:47:56 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Conclusion: You don't want a solution that requires you to ugrade your ability at the game.
Secondary conclusion: You will remain bad at EVE until you throw off the shackles of lazy thinking and cease defending an untenable position.

Much like our (or TEST's) shackles of holding sov.
I don't argue about Sov - I know better that to debate on thing of which I clearly know nothing. Blink
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#200 - 2013-07-19 19:48:48 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:

Yes, CCP put some toys and playsets in thw sandbox, but ultimately, it is up to each and every one of us to decide how to play here. The playground monitors will *not* redesign the sandbox just because *you're* not happy with how others play.


ME? I couldn't care less. I left system. AFK cloaker is still there. Nobody's using the system. I think about 35 players de-camped somewhere else. He'll probably be there a few weeks. Who knows. We can't de-cloak him. We can't scan him down. We can't effectively do anything until he decides to move. People don't want to sit in fleet 23/7 for a fortnight just in case he decides to show himself. He doesn't have to sit there watching local or directional. He can go and watch Family Guy Monday through Sunday if he wants.

One player can do that for a whole system. This happens all the time. It's terrible game design.

It's also bullshit.

That is all you need to know.



So all of this is fueled by jealousy at someone being able to watch Family Guy.

While you ran, I was still ratting. I say again:
[Typhoon, F yo couch]
Power Diagnostic System II
Warp Core Stabilizer II
Warp Core Stabilizer II
Warp Core Stabilizer II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Auto-Targeting Cruise Missile I
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hobgoblin II x5
Curator II x4