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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

First post First post
Author
Doddy
Excidium.
#1641 - 2013-07-25 21:45:44 UTC
JerseyBOI 2 wrote:
Doddy wrote:
They are "assault" cruisers. They should be tough as hell brawlers that get in your face and break you. Ahacs epitomise this.

A bonus that should be considered is one to the reactive armour hardener, allowing the hac to react to incoming damage quicker than other ships. Its not suiable for shield hacs obviously but hey you can give them a bonus to asbs in some way. Maybe a role bonus that allows armour hacs to react twice as fast as normal with reactive hardener and allows shield hacs to load twice as many boosters in asb?

Allowing them to use the Micro jump drive could work also. Or use target breaker without losing own lock. The "more enemies shooting you the more effective it is" thing totally fits. Really this is a big opportunity for ccp to do something a bit different.

More boring bonuses are the obvious ab speed like assault frigs were going to have back in the good old days. Or an overloading bonus so they can go trully all in (steps on t3s toes too much in my view).




Wow. These ships are not brawlers. When you brawl you either go money, (super pimped insert-->T3, Hyperion, Vindi, Navy Mega, Maelstrom, links, pills, etc...) or you go cheap (insert-->Brutix, Vexor, Thorax, Maller, Prophecy, lol links, lol pills, etc.. )
you get the point. This is EVE 2013. Gangs are now considered <50, everyone is baiting, 9 outta 10 you wont be able to disengage. If this is your playstyle your a fool to use HACS. Not the tankiest, not the cheapest. Just because FLEETS use AHACS to great effect doesn't mean they are good. stop it. SPEED.

Why are you using how hacs are pre-changes to judge how they would be after?

The point is not that they are brawlers, but that they were, should be and easily could be, its what heavy assault means ffs. A kiting ship is the opposite of "heavy assault". Their whole design philosophy from the start was double damage bonus and double tanking bonus. Hacs are not brawlers because ccp added better/cheaper brawlers. If ccp actually wants to have heavy assault cruisers they need to redress that balance. If they don't want brawlers then they should just get rid of them and have something else. Heavy assault cruisers being kiting ships is right up there in the top broken designs of eve. Not that any of them are even good at it anyway, their being better or cheaper ships for that too.
Puer Servus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1642 - 2013-07-25 21:55:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

SACRILEGE

5% to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile damage (added heavy missiles)


If you are adding Heavy Missile bonus to Sacrilege. Could you also add Light Missile bonus to Vegeance and Heretic? It would create more options to Amarr missile ships.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#1643 - 2013-07-25 21:58:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


Perhaps I've missed it in the 80+ pages or the op, but can the "update(s)" be highlighted or called attention to?

I'm right behind you

Ja'ho sun
Series of The Ridiculous
#1644 - 2013-07-25 22:51:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


hes to hoping u leave the cerb the **** alone. the first pass did plenty for it.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1645 - 2013-07-25 23:26:32 UTC
Ja'ho sun wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


hes to hoping u leave the cerb the **** alone. the first pass did plenty for it.


Do you know why the carical became so popular after the T1 cruiser balance? because it did decent dps out to range and actualy had the speed to not get caught by any old BC. the cerb cant and still cant do the same, it will die in a ball of fire to any T1 cruiser with a scram.
Ja'ho sun
Series of The Ridiculous
#1646 - 2013-07-25 23:29:54 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Ja'ho sun wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


hes to hoping u leave the cerb the **** alone. the first pass did plenty for it.


Do you know why the carical became so popular after the T1 cruiser balance? because it did decent dps out to range and actualy had the speed to not get caught by any old BC. the cerb cant and still cant do the same, it will die in a ball of fire to any T1 cruiser with a scram.


looking at my KB, yea ur wrong.
Zurin Arctus
Trauma Ward
#1647 - 2013-07-25 23:36:53 UTC
Wow. I didn't think it was possible to make the Ishtar more mediocre.

As it stands, the Ishtar has less CPU than a Vexor. I see you tried to fix that by taking away one of the often-empty highs. /clap

Rise, you and the devs surely realize how CPU-hungry ANY drone module or rig can be. Why gimp the CPU of ships that employ drones as their primary weapon system? This makes it pretty vexing to fit and fly both the Ishtar and the Gila, and quashes creative fits.

tl;dr: You aren't going to break the game if you give the Ishtar ~40 more CPU
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1648 - 2013-07-25 23:40:23 UTC
Ja'ho sun wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Ja'ho sun wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


hes to hoping u leave the cerb the **** alone. the first pass did plenty for it.


Do you know why the carical became so popular after the T1 cruiser balance? because it did decent dps out to range and actualy had the speed to not get caught by any old BC. the cerb cant and still cant do the same, it will die in a ball of fire to any T1 cruiser with a scram.


looking at my KB, yea ur wrong.


You know im not much into getting twisted in baby like killboard braging, but it dose help to actualy have a kill history for your charicter. Oh let me guess your so good that you have to hide your identity behind a forum alt.
Deirdre Anethoel
Objectif Licorne
#1649 - 2013-07-25 23:42:10 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Ja'ho sun wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


hes to hoping u leave the cerb the **** alone. the first pass did plenty for it.


Do you know why the carical became so popular after the T1 cruiser balance? because it did decent dps out to range and actualy had the speed to not get caught by any old BC. the cerb cant and still cant do the same, it will die in a ball of fire to any T1 cruiser with a scram.


Agreed. The cerb is SLOWER than a T3 BCs. Seriously, it's a cruiser. Even if they're supposed to be tough brawlers and not kitting ships (and I doubt that since the amount of range bonuses they have is pretty high), they should have a decent speed. Not navy cruiser speed (leave them that), but definitely as fast as their tech1 counterpart. And definitely a lot faster than tier3 BCs.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#1650 - 2013-07-25 23:46:04 UTC
Deirdre Anethoel wrote:

Agreed. The cerb is SLOWER than a T3 BCs. Seriously, it's a cruiser. Even if they're supposed to be tough brawlers and not kitting ships (and I doubt that since the amount of range bonuses they have is pretty high), they should have a decent speed. Not navy cruiser speed (leave them that), but definitely as fast as their tech1 counterpart. And definitely a lot faster than tier3 BCs.


I really did like the difference between vaga and cynabal. Since the vaga aligns like a brick in comparison, it matched the 'sturdy' theme pretty well. Wish though it would have been faster afterall. It shouldn't lose on both.
Ja'ho sun
Series of The Ridiculous
#1651 - 2013-07-26 00:04:36 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Ja'ho sun wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Ja'ho sun wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


hes to hoping u leave the cerb the **** alone. the first pass did plenty for it.


Do you know why the carical became so popular after the T1 cruiser balance? because it did decent dps out to range and actualy had the speed to not get caught by any old BC. the cerb cant and still cant do the same, it will die in a ball of fire to any T1 cruiser with a scram.


looking at my KB, yea ur wrong.


You know im not much into getting twisted in baby like killboard braging, but it dose help to actualy have a kill history for your charicter. Oh let me guess your so good that you have to hide your identity behind a forum alt.


I like to think ahead. which means I not disclosing anything that could be used against me in pvp, like allowing ppl to see wat I fly though my KB, which u just tried to do. sure ppl can look at my pvp char's kb when I roam, but then its a limited group that sees it. it also doesn't mean they understand how the ship is flown and used in combat.

the cerb is a great ship when flown with the right with the right fit. the inability to exploit its bonuses are not the ships fault but the pilots that look at it. the cerb can take on multiple targets solo, not just tank them but kill them as well.

so again not the ships fault, the pilot that uses it.
Kaz Mafaele
D-sync
D-sync.
#1652 - 2013-07-26 00:12:04 UTC
maybe this has already been answered and I just did not catch it. Can someone in the know comment on why the iskur ishtar assault ships use up a roll bonus just getting more drone bay. I feel like with t1 ships like the tristan, vexor or navy vexor inherently having those large drone bays already it basically becomes a wasted ship bonus. also the fitting seems way off as well with the drone boats but that seems like a more manageable problem.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1653 - 2013-07-26 00:19:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


Last iteration?

You haven't done any yet, so I'd say it's the first and hopefully not the last if they need it.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1654 - 2013-07-26 00:22:21 UTC
Rise said by the end of this week (we're there) or beginning next one.

So let me call out:

RISE !!

The heck dude??

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1655 - 2013-07-26 00:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Heribeck Weathers
Quote:
I like to think ahead. which means I not disclosing anything that could be used against me in pvp, like allowing ppl to see wat I fly though my KB, which u just tried to do. sure ppl can look at my pvp char's kb when I roam, but then its a limited group that sees it. it also doesn't mean they understand how the ship is flown and used in combat.

the cerb is a great ship when flown with the right with the right fit. the inability to exploit its bonuses are not the ships fault but the pilots that look at it. the cerb can take on multiple targets solo, not just tank them but kill them as well.

so again not the ships fault, the pilot that uses it.


If you lose a ship and blame it on them spying on your loss mails then your not really a good pilot after all.

Take a look at the heron, a lowly T1 scanning ship, yet i have used it many times to beat the pants off off almost any other T1 frig (Feel free to actualy check my killboard) The heron has no bnuses to pvp orintated fits but my piloting and quick judgement lets me own in it. So i will give you props for "suposidly" using a Cerb to solo people. But lets not kid ourseves here this has nothing to do with one pirate beating down noobs with a cerb this has to do with the ship being obviously subpar to the Navy carical, Navy Omen, and T1 carical in so many ways it hurts, especialy in the speed department where a Tr3 BC even out classes it. And it simply did not recive the fitting room it needs to comfortably fit its new 6th launcher and a decent tank, not that it could sport much of a decent tank to begin with.

TL:DR - Unless you can back your argument up with facts, numbers, situations where it would own, and not baseless braging of none existant kills sit back and take whatever Cerb people actualy argue with Rise to improve give you.

PS: unless you actualy post a reply worth reading im no linger going to feed the troll and acknowledge your next post
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1656 - 2013-07-26 00:50:47 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Rise said by the end of this week (we're there) or beginning next one.

So let me call out:

RISE !!

The heck dude??


he likes to make nerds sweat. Monday it shall have to be...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1657 - 2013-07-26 01:11:09 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Give the ishtar a real cruiser sized bonus for scout drones? -ok for dps but really needs to increase those drones speed and reduce scout drones signature significantly so those survive to small guns/smartbombing easier, no guns needed.



Range/Damage/Sig & ...? Still needs a 4th bonus but I think it would add more flavor than another sentry boat. Seems like we agree on that.
Ja'ho sun
Series of The Ridiculous
#1658 - 2013-07-26 01:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ja'ho sun
Ja'ho sun wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Ja'ho sun wrote:
[quote=CCP Rise]Another small update just so you guys don't get mad and think I've abandoned you!

Entering final review steps internally and with CSM before getting latest iteration of this stuff posted here for you guys. Early next week at the latest I'd say.

o/


hes to hoping u leave the cerb the **** alone. the first pass did plenty for it.


Do you know why the carical became so popular after the T1 cruiser balance? because it did decent dps out to range and actualy had the speed to not get caught by any old BC. the cerb cant and still cant do the same, it will die in a ball of fire to any T1 cruiser with a scram.


let throw just a little bit of math into this. the current cerb moves as fast as a tengu under micro (using the fastest sub ofc) u can even check the numbers on that, should be about 1460 or something like that. now caldri as a race are not the fastest nor should they be as their main weapon sys is missiles.
I think every1 recalls the heavy missile 100mn tengu being able to push 500 dps at 100km. its a recipe for an overpowered weapons sys if the ship is just too fast, which is why caldri are where they are speed wise. back to the cerb.

at base speed right now with no skills, the cerb sits at 175. the caracal its t1 counter part has 230. that's a big difference. since the caracal has received its buff and the cerb has not just yet lets use the base speed its slated for, 205. so now its the cerb at 205 with the caracal at 230, add in nav skills ur likely looking at about around 230 to 235 base for the cerb and the caracal sit at 288. under micro the caracal moves at 1881 (with max nav skills and without a nano ofc) so that puts the cerb at about 1700.

the cerb went from goin 1445 to about 1700 under micro, suddenly not so slow. sure its slower then the caracal, but should it be faster? im unsure about that. t1 should have something over t2, I think speed should be it, but I wouldn't mind if it was faster or as fast.
now lets compare the speed of the slated cerb to the nano ABCs. talos moves at 1673, nado 1734 and the oracle 1571.
this is all without links or Lg/Hg snakes.

lets compare dps just a little bit between the caracal and cerb then. now I have HAC at 5 so it may be a little unfair but I don't think I care too much. ill also use implants to max out the dps. caracal with hams will push AT MAX without overheat 478 at about 27km, with heat 562. while that's not something to ignore the cerb will laugh saying "that's all u can push?'
the cerb pushes 475 at HAC lv 4, lv 5 500 dps this is BEFORE slated buff.

so tell me again which is better? caracal as it is now? or the new cerb with not 5 but 6 launchers? with its bonuses intact as they are. lets not forget the cerb can hit a **** load farther then the caracal can.

edit. I should also mention that the cerb dps is unover heated. 561 heated HAC lv 4 600 dps heated HAC lv 5. this is with faction ammo btw. lets try rage ammo. HAC lv 4 560 basic, 660 heated. HAC lv 5 600 basic, 700 heated. these are HAM setups just so we are clear.
Spr09
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Brave Collective
#1659 - 2013-07-26 01:59:17 UTC
People say that the sacrelige is bad for some reason. With how it currently stands, it will be one of the best close range E-war brawlers. HAMs will not be able to reach very far, but with it's massive capacitor and bonus to recharge rate, and pilot with decent skills will be able to run E-war mods indefinitely.


  • 5 Launchers, and 5 medium drones will be able to do decent damage, especially with a dual bonus to missile damage.
  • 4% armor resist per level on the amarr cruiser means an instant 20% bonus to resistances, making it harder to kill than other HACs.
  • 4 mid slots on an armor ship means a MWD and 3 other modules, which combined with the capacitor recharge time will mean they can be running longer than other ships.
  • It uses missile, which means that it won't be using capacitor for any lasers.


So stop your complaining, without actually playing around with it yet it looks like it's a solid ship.
Skullian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1660 - 2013-07-26 02:12:39 UTC
Deimos: "Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1350(+190) / 1750(-290) / 2000(-531)"

Oh, COME ON!!!!

It was already a glass cannon, now I might actually sell mine because it is too f***ing fragile to bring into a fight.