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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

First post First post
Author
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#721 - 2013-07-19 13:19:27 UTC
JEFFRAIDER wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Titans suck, they're only good for bridging and drivebys

Back to the topic at hand... Muninn, I am disappoint.


KNOCK KNOCK?

WHO IS THERE?

A POOR


Titans and Supers are what is wrong with nullsec, just because you need htem to wave your ego around at everyone doesn't mean I have the same issues you do. Roll

MrDiao wrote:
"100% bonus to EW drone effectiveness"?


No. No. No no no. No. Reason: ECM drones, as if they aren't too good already.



Anyone else notice CCP is systematicly killing off Winmatar? The ships still work, but they are outclassed by other races in: Frigates, Cruisers, HACs, AFs.
The Cyclone is a good dual XLASB BC.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#722 - 2013-07-19 13:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Gnoshia wrote:
Altrue wrote:
290 m/s for the vagabond while kiting cerberus (for instance, but every other is also around 200) has 205, so almost 50% less ? Lol


^ This.

If the Cerberus is going to be a kiting ship it needs to be noticeably faster.

Not impressed with the Cerberus changes TBH. Also change the bonus to include rapid light missiles pls. Ty.


Indeed i think CCP need to give up the ghost on trying to not make them T2 attack cruisers .. yes you can keep the T1 attack cruisers as the faster option but you cannot handicap HACS with combat cruiser speed and lower .. not if you want people to take you seriously

OR fly them



Must be careful there. Cerberus can kit at mUch longer ranges with heavy missiles and never misses (the vagabond speed means it cannot orbit target or it will miss all shots)

If you make a cerberus go near vagabond speed. it will be completely super overpowered by orbiting larger ships with MWD signature reduciton and never missing shots.


indeed but you only have too look at the caracal vs stabber speeds to get a picture of where the cerb should be say minus 5% of caracal and thats roughly where the cerb should be at for speed and 5% heavier mass.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Luwc
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#723 - 2013-07-19 13:35:08 UTC
I don't mean to be a ***** but the sacrilege already kicks ass.

Just look at the active tanking variants of it.

By all means , Buffing it more will make it op as f*ck

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#724 - 2013-07-19 13:35:43 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Swidgen wrote:

Think about it: if HACs no longer fulfill their originally intended roles, .



problem with the op is rise does not define in his mind what is the role of a hac.

it seems some are leaning toward a combat and some to paper thin attack...

we need to clearly define what is a hac before we can discuss where they need to go.

moreover we have two tiers of hacs... IMO one should be more combat tanky and one more mobile attack.
It seems as though (based on the Tech chart from a while ago and various comments) that CCP envisions HACs as a tankier version of a T1 Attack Cruiser. This idea worked great in the Zealot, because it can mount a significant tank (~+100%) over an Omen, project more damage with its damage bonus (on top of its RoF bonus) AND have better optimals with the +optimal bonus. The Zealot combines the best of Amarr T1 into a T2 hull: strong tank (like a maller) and good damage (like an Omen (old ONI)). Each race has one HAC that is supposed to elevate their T1 Att. Cruiser and then some. Zealot already does this, Deimos should, Vagabond should and Cerebus should (probably does after this pass).

Then, the other ships in the HAC category were racial wildcards. Amarr had Sacrilege (firing HAMs from an armor hull), Gallente had Ishtar (which was supposed to be some sort of super Vexor), Minmatar the Muninn for a specialized long rage Arty boat and Caldari the Eagle for a similar purpose. What happened in the mean time is T3 BCs were released, obsoleting the long range ships and T1/Navy got such boosts that the rest, save from the shining-star Zealot--which really wasn't affected because the package on the ONI is for kiting, just couldn't keep up. Obviously, the Zealot was a beautiful ship, well designed and didn't need to change.

Unfortunately, the other ships weren't at this place. The Deimos isn't a "better" Thorax. The Thorax still tracks better, is faster and puts out the same (or more) damage than it. Eagles will still put down pitiful dps (at range! whoo! /sad) and the same dps as a Moa up close. I have to disagree with CCP that HACs shouldn't be "better" than a T1 ship. Yes, they should be. The Zealot, by all measures, is flat-out better than an Omen and a Maller. HACs should put out more damage with ~60k tank (with an ACR). Command Ships, OTOH, should put out similar damage to their T1 counterparts but have a tankier ship. That'd distinguish CSs with HACs: HACs give you damage and CSs give you tank.

But back to the point: CCP likely wants HACs to be what their name implies: A heavy assau--attack--cruiser. A T1 cruiser with more tank. But that distinguishment will never justify the 10:1 increase in cost, and if they don't balance based on cost, then there's really no point in having these ships cost more just so we can get a marginal increase like extra optimal range. (And besides, Navy ships are already T1 ships with more tank.) These ships have to do more: project damage better, better falloff, better tracking, faster rate of fire, stronger cap, stronger tank, etc. There needs to be a reason to buy one--and a much better reason than a marginal performance increase.

CCP, I urge you to have a hard look at the Zealot and why it's been so successful in the game. Ask yourselves why Deimoses, Eagles and the others have been shelved. Then, once you answer those questions, work in solutions to this line that addresses those answers.


Perfect!

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#725 - 2013-07-19 13:36:49 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Gnoshia wrote:
Altrue wrote:
290 m/s for the vagabond while kiting cerberus (for instance, but every other is also around 200) has 205, so almost 50% less ? Lol


^ This.

If the Cerberus is going to be a kiting ship it needs to be noticeably faster.

Not impressed with the Cerberus changes TBH. Also change the bonus to include rapid light missiles pls. Ty.


Indeed i think CCP need to give up the ghost on trying to not make them T2 attack cruisers .. yes you can keep the T1 attack cruisers as the faster option but you cannot handicap HACS with combat cruiser speed and lower .. not if you want people to take you seriously

OR fly them



Must be careful there. Cerberus can kit at mUch longer ranges with heavy missiles and never misses (the vagabond speed means it cannot orbit target or it will miss all shots)

If you make a cerberus go near vagabond speed. it will be completely super overpowered by orbiting larger ships with MWD signature reduciton and never missing shots.


indeed but you only have too look at the caracal vs stabber speeds to get a picture of where the cerb should be say minus 5% of caracal and thats roughly where the cerb should be at for speed and 5% heavier mass.



Needs to be a bit worse (not as much as now altough) because cerberus has amplified firepower and range.. multiplying the effect of speed, while vagabond has same range as stabber.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#726 - 2013-07-19 13:40:41 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

If you make a cerberus go near vagabond speed. it will be completely super overpowered by orbiting larger ships with MWD signature reduciton and never missing shots.


Just for laughs, fit up a dual nano Typhoon with 6 cruise missile launchers, and then fit up a cerb and pretend it has 6 launchers too.

Now tell me again why a faster cerb is a problem.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#727 - 2013-07-19 13:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Prices of HACs begin to soar.


They better not, they already cost too much for such **** poor performance.
(I'm looking at you Diemost, Vagabond, Muninn, Sac, Cerebus, Ishtar, and Zealot)

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Max Zerg
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2013-07-19 13:46:16 UTC
Dear CCP Rise

Please add more CPU resource to Ishtar

Thanks in advance
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#729 - 2013-07-19 13:52:00 UTC
this is the eagle i want to see

EAGLE -

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
4% bonus to shield resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 4L; 6 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+175), 430 CPU(-8)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount) : 1350(-25)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 175(+11) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25m3/25mb
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 18 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 125

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Mara Jango
Into the Ether
Covert Otters Venture Into Darkness
#730 - 2013-07-19 13:52:29 UTC
Please add more CPU to the Ishtar! You have added some nice mods for drones recently but they are cpu heavy and make the ishtar nearly impossible to fit. Please.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#731 - 2013-07-19 13:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Ral en Thielles wrote:
Vagabond Dead... was fun wile it was usable. That's prior TE changes and Now THIS ... Attention

After TE nerf, nor cynabal nor the vaga can be called a frig killer ... What are they good for then ?

Changes now: 7.5% shield boost bonus.??? Why?
The one hac that has big cap problems when using MWD module, now gets Active Tank bonus...
Active tanking vs ship that can take you out in two shots, its just not possible! (Talos anyone... )
I think it useless to put Active tanking bonuses on frigate and cruiser size ships at all.


Because the current ASB Vaga is already a very good ship with ASB fit and with that bonus will be a much better Cynabal than Cynabal


Ral en Thielles wrote:
Deimos Attention MORE SPEED PLEASEAttention

Can someone please explain to me the roles thing again... I just can not understand how T2 ship can be worse then it's T1 variant!
Or maybe we should only use hacs with armor and AB, so we can use that extra resists.

I am disappointed ...


Because Diemost is now faster/tankier AND dps wise shield fitted for solo/small gang work, with armor retains same issues while using blasters but will probably be a bit more used in armor fleets with rails competing with scorch pulse Zealots.

Zealot was already the only viable AHAC, it's just getting better and I will not complain about, can fly them all so I'll fly the next pownmobile (pulse Zealots most probably)

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Valterra Craven
#732 - 2013-07-19 14:01:42 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys, I'm back at work after having nightmares all night of running out of Ishtar CPU

We're reading all this, as usual, and will iterate based on it, as usual. We have some time (because everyone here is on vacation so I can do what I want #yolobalancing) so I want to wait until after the weekend to commit to anything. I might post again in a bit about some of our high level strategy as there is clearly some frustration about the contrast between HACs and the nice powerpoints about T2 specialization.

Please keep up the discussion and I'll be back soon with more info.



Just for ***** and giggles why don't you do us a favor and throw out the design strat and then do this:

Put down all the ship hulls in the cruisers group down on paper. (T1, Navy, Faction, T2, T3)
(make sure to include lvl 5 SP train time on all of them for any skills that affect the performance of the ship as well the cost of the hull/rigs/ammo/mods etc)

Compare all of them to each other (slots, fittings, bonuses)

Decide a percentage base of how much better t2 hulls should be over their t1 counterpoints

Make that happen across the board for all ships

Dust your hands and clap for yourself as you are cheered and loved for your changes...
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2013-07-19 14:02:43 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:


Because the current ASB Vaga is already a very good ship with ASB fit and with that bonus will be a much better Cynabal than Cynabal



Except Minmatar aren't brawlers, they are fast kiting ships. The Vaga is supposed to be a kiting ship, except it sucks because the Cynabal outclasses it in every way.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#734 - 2013-07-19 14:03:16 UTC
You know what, just add a slot to every ship and don't change the powergrid/cpu of them at all, and let the people try to balance it out. The HAC creators managed to overslot the ships, but could not get them to produce any extra powergrid or cpu to cover the overslotting, allowing for creative endeavors to be done with them.

Change the Role Bonus to 10% hit points (shield,armor and hull) and 4% resistances (shield and armor). People will either try to overtank it, or just decide that it has enough health, lets add speed rigs, damage rigs, etc). (this is flat, not per level)


Zealot. Extra High, Utility Slot
Sacrelige. Extra low (no extra cpu or powergrid)


Deimos. Extra low (damn thing needs to get in range, in addition if they want to rail fit it, they can and give it enough speed to do it)
Ishtar. Extra Mid (the CPU and Powergrid would have to be checked on this ship, as it is SO tight)


Eagle. Extra Mid (Yep 7 mids, no extra cpu/powergrid).
Cereberus (Extra Low) (can nano or overdrive the ship, giving it its needed speed, or heck if your crazy armor tank the damn thing)


Vagabond. Extra Mid (yep 6/5/5) (no extra grid/cpu)
Muninn. Extra Mid (6/4/6).


Absolutely no thought of balance, reasoning for why the slot allotment was selected, or any type of care of your feelings were taken into account for the above proposal.

Yaay!!!!

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#735 - 2013-07-19 14:04:26 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
this is the eagle i want to see

EAGLE -

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
4% bonus to shield resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 4L; 6 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+175), 430 CPU(-8)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount) : 1350(-25)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 175(+11) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25m3/25mb
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 18 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 125


I would like to see it with 220m/s and a stronger damage bonus and an extra low would be really handy, i think HACS are being short changed on having only 15 slots.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#736 - 2013-07-19 14:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:


Because the current ASB Vaga is already a very good ship with ASB fit and with that bonus will be a much better Cynabal than Cynabal



Except Minmatar aren't brawlers, they are fast kiting ships. The Vaga is supposed to be a kiting ship, except it sucks because the Cynabal outclasses it in every way.


An interesting alternative bonus to ASB could be a 5% sig radius reduction per level on the HAC side switch it with the damage bonus they could increase to a 10% damage bonus

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#737 - 2013-07-19 14:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmell
So about new role bonus against large guns with 400m resolution

zealot- 438
sac - 490
cerb - 473
eagle - 525
ishtar - 508
deimos - 560
muninn- 455
vaga- 403

So how helpful will this bonus be actually?

Those are numbers without links and any shield modules, so in reality for shield ships it will be way bigger

As for links...don't even start
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#738 - 2013-07-19 14:12:35 UTC
Schmell wrote:
So about new role bonus against large guns with 400m resolution

zealot- 438
sac - 490
cerb - 473
eagle - 525
ishtar - 508
deimos - 560
muninn- 455
vaga- 403

So how helpful will this bonus be actually?

Those are numbers without links and any shield modules, so in reality for shield ships it will be way bigger

As for links...don't even start


Indeed they really need to come up with either a stronger bonus or severely reduce the sig radius of these ships.
Also some new skills to help reduce the penalties of mwd and shield extenders wouldn't go amiss

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
#739 - 2013-07-19 14:25:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aloe Cloveris
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Zealot was already the only viable HAC, it's just getting better and I will not complain about, can fly them all so I'll fly the next pownmobile (pulse Zealots most probably)


Deimos has a base sig radius literally halfway between a Zealot and a bloody Talos battlecruiser (Z = 125m; D = 160m; T= 200m). Pretty terrible for AHAC gangs who rely on small sigs to foil tracking. Deimos remains a liability and Zealots continue to dominate AHAC fleet comps I guess. Fantastic!

e:

Schmell wrote:
So about new role bonus against large guns with 400m resolution

zealot- 438
sac - 490
cerb - 473
eagle - 525
ishtar - 508
>>>deimos - 560<<<
muninn- 455
vaga- 403

So how helpful will this bonus be actually?

Those are numbers without links and any shield modules, so in reality for shield ships it will be way bigger

As for links...don't even start


Christ almighty.

Being neuted and scrammed and webbed because I close to blaster range, the thing I want most for the Deimos is to be incredibly easy to track as well. Fortunately, gangs always ignore the blaster hulls that are sitting on top of them in favor of shooting the hard-to-track, tiny-sig'd, well-rounded-resist Zealots zipping around at their insane scorch optimal.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#740 - 2013-07-19 14:28:41 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
this is the eagle i want to see

EAGLE -

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
4% bonus to shield resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 4L; 6 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 1050 PWG(+175), 430 CPU(-8)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount) : 1350(-25)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 175(+11) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25m3/25mb
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 18 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 125


I would like to see it with 220m/s and a stronger damage bonus and an extra low would be really handy, i think HACS are being short changed on having only 15 slots.


indeed. so what 6 high 5 mid and 5 low?

and how about the damage bonus replaced with a rate of fire? that would increase dps by 33% vrs 25%...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.