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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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JEFFRAIDER
THIGH GUYS
#581 - 2013-07-19 01:24:38 UTC
hey also bosses these changes are not good

gotta make them worth it over a 2m t1 cruiser and a 75m T1 ABC but without unbalancing them for fleets

GL

o7
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#582 - 2013-07-19 01:36:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
"Guys a Deimos just landed on grid with me, orders?" -Average Joe

"Really? Well just tackle it and we will be there in a few minutes." -Friends Docked Up Several Jumps Away

"OK, he is tackled. Got a scram, web and even a neut on him. My tank is doing ok considering he is using blasters." -Average Joe

"Nice. We are undocking and should be there..." -Friends Docked Up Several Jumps Away

"AHAHAHA!!! Holy **** I was trying to pull damage so you guys could kill mail whore on it, but he dipped into armor and just exploded. Strange. He even had a damage control fit too." -Average Joe

"Poor son of a *****. Well launch your salvage drones and salvage the wreck. About all the Diemost is good for anyways." -Friends Docked Up Several Jumps Away

"No kidding. Wait, aBC on scan now. Should I..." -Average Joe

"WARP OUT! I repeat warp out!!!... Do you copy?! Average Joe!!!" -Friends Docked Up Several Jumps Away

"We couldn't get him in fleet in time. He's gone." -Off Grid Bonuses

"Bastard is going to pay! New wing created. Make sure you fill those squad command positions. *sniff* We will avenge you Average Joe. *sniff* Why are some of you not on the titan?" -Friends Several Jumps Away On Titan
Golden Hart
State War Academy
Caldari State
#583 - 2013-07-19 01:39:39 UTC
Simon BlackWell wrote:
Deimos has been hit fairly hard. 4th mid is nice, but honestly, I've no use for a web for the most part.

Nerfing it's EHP was a bit of a low blow. It can't brawl properly now, not to mention that with the utility highslot gone, there went the ubiquitous small Nos to keep everything running whilst you brawl.


You've changed the Nos mechanics, then begin plucking Utility highslots away from things.


Staaaaahp


Couldn’t agree with you more leave the utility slots alone gallente need them!
Mukun
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#584 - 2013-07-19 01:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mukun
as a close combat ship,why deimos has the highest sig radius? does it do any good to help it get close to target or tank damage? or you re too focus on rework it to a rail platform? and also, where is the 7.5% tracking bonus from thorax?
Chimpface Holocaust
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#585 - 2013-07-19 01:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Chimpface Holocaust
I just did the math on the Vagabond speed bonus and it would have to be 298m/s to cover the max velocity lost by replacing the bonus

*299 if you round up
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#586 - 2013-07-19 01:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Ishtar:

It's no secret, I hate drone boats. Drones are horrible, and cannot be used as a primary damage source for PvP small gang. They etch out some kind of usefulness in scram / web armor brawling- but that's about it. Sentry sniping for PvP is a joke. Any ship that uses drones as its primary weapon system is really a waste. The ishtar is slow, has a useless MWD sig bonus. However the rest of the bonuses make sense for a drone hull. Still completely outclassed by the navy vexor, because unlike the Ishtar- the Nvexor can do things other than just brawl.

Vagabond:

AC boats were already struggling. Then the TE nerf happened, and all AC boats took a nose dive when trying to apply damage outside of scram / web range. The vaga shares the same 10% increase in falloff as its stabber cousin, and just like the stabber cannot kite. Even though this is considered a kiting ship- its pathetic DPS at range means that it is outclassed by other ships. The MWD sig bonus makes sense here, and the vaga is certainly fast enough. However what I don't understand is the active tanking bonus. The vaga is a 'kiting' ship that according to you, should have the ability to get up close in scram / web and face ****. The active tanking bonus (while nice) is really going to shut down the vagas play style.

It seems that you are really encroaching on the SFI's world, of fast, hard tackle. In fact the vaga may do the job even better, so what would be the point of ever flying an SFI anymore? The idea of a 290m/s base speed cruiser with the ability to run a really powerful dual LASB tank with an MWD scram, is simply going to be a nightmare for any solo / small gang pilots. SFI's were annoying enough, but adding in a ship that has this nice speed, and a secondary tanking bonus is going to make this ship really, really difficult for players to fly against- as nothing can run from it.

Muninn:

This ship has (along with the new Arty changes) Taken a step in the right direction. It is doing all of the things it did before, however it is doing them much better- and all of its bonuses, and slot reworking make complete sense when added into its desired play style. Good work.


About the HAC's in general:

I am getting confused on what you are doing with HAC's. If you truly want to make some of them into the pinnacle of kiting boats, than you need to buff the speed on many of the 'kiting hulls'. The T1 cruisers / Navy cruisers are just so fast now- that any kiting cruiser is going to need to keep up with that pack, if they are going to stand a chance.

Over all I am really confused the the Eagle hulls, vaga, sacrilage, cerberus. They simply don't make sense. Or if the ship does perform well, will do its job so well that it will eclipse others / make other play styles extremely difficult.

Here is a quick speed chart:

New Vagabond / Stabber: 290<<<< The fastest cruiser in the game has an active tanking bonus. You are not worried about the proliferation of scram vagas? They can catch everything, and hold it down- and now the have a nice tank, and better projection- with a Sig bonus. What is the point of the SFI?
Scythe Fleet: 280
Nomen: 265
Nosprey: 260
Exequror Navy: 255
SFI: 250<<<<< Help me!!!!!
Scythe: 250
Exequror: 240
Thorax: 240
Omen: 235
Caracal: 230
New Deimos: 220
Vexor Navy Issue: 220
Augoror Navy Issue: 215
Augoror Navy: 210
Caracal Navy: 210
New Zealot: 210<<<< Again? How is this an upgrade from the Nomen?
New Muninn: 210
Vexor: 205
New Cerberus: 205<<<<< this is your idea of a kiting boat?
Osprey: 200
New Sacrilage: 200<<<<< Why is the MWD sig bonus on a ship this slow useful?
Maller: 195
New Ishtar: 185<<<< So slow.
New Eagle: 175<<<< Again MWD sig bonus?
CaldariCitizen 3924833
Throw More Dots
#587 - 2013-07-19 01:56:08 UTC
SACRILEGE

Minus 1 highslot + 1 lowslot please
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#588 - 2013-07-19 01:59:57 UTC
I'm not really thrilled that all the t2 frigates and cruiser get the same role bonus.

I realize null sec pilots may like this bonus but as a low sec pilot its very limited in value.

Scram removes the bonus and sig tanking generally means you are in scram (and neut) range. In low sec flying any of these expect a bunch of frigates to get under your guns while you die with your role bonused mwd turned off.

Some variety would be good ccp. Not all t2s need to have the same "role" of sig tanking battleship sized guns while your bubbled.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
gawrshmapooo
J33 Monocombine
#589 - 2013-07-19 02:02:37 UTC
My shitfit Vexor:
20k ehp without damage control.
300dps

My Carefully fit Sacrilege:
8.8k ehp
260 dps.

My shitfit Vexor isk cost: 25mil
My carefully fit Sacrilege cost: 300mil

Don't even tell me that's okay.

I sell combat boosters of every strength and type. Message me to get your edge.
Flex Carter
Caldari Independant Mining Association
#590 - 2013-07-19 02:05:12 UTC
CCP, please show me on the doll where my Diemos touched you guys to warrant this drastic change. Geez X
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#591 - 2013-07-19 02:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
These changes are underwhelming, but I'm glad you chose HACs for 1.1!


I just don't see the theme with HACs like I've seen with other classes. Are they combat or attack? Which ones are which?

It just feels like their role is "use mwd and try to find a useful spot on the battlefield," rather than something a little more tangible. Heavy tackle role is already filled by hictors. aBC's still seem like the go to ships.

What about a 2nd role bonus that scrams don't shut off MWD?

Diemios isn't going to have the tank it needs for brawling, beef that up.. It needs an extra low not an extra mid. Its dmg potential seems a bit suspect, but I guess we'll see.

Why leave 1 launcher on the eagle? Just curious, its totally unnecessary.
Apocryphal Noise
The Harpooner's Rest
#592 - 2013-07-19 02:20:23 UTC
Great, another minidominix to abuse drone assign.


Are you ok with how drone assign works?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#593 - 2013-07-19 02:22:23 UTC
What is truly scary is that Rise has said that he will consult with the CSM (groan) then get back to us.

Here's a concept. Throw these ships on Sisi tomorrow.
Start with what you have suggested with these changes.

Allocate some area Sisi for ship testing.
Even use the existing thunderdome area on Sisi.

Make many public posts encouraging people to heavily test them.
Now, and this is the hard part for CCP, ACTUALLY listen to the feedback and tweak accordingly, and OFTEN!!!!
Don't do what fozzie did in the drone nerf, and ignore 60 pages of feedback, or have another situation like ignoring the warnings about the UI.
Maybe give away SP ON tranquility, not Sisi, for the best suggestions that evolve into the final changes.

And something else that is hard for CCP, TAKE YOUR TIME.
Do it right. State that any changes to the HAC class won't be introduced on TQ until the Dec release.

The player base is the best asset you have to design these ships and test them, morph them into something useful.
Use that asset.
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#594 - 2013-07-19 02:26:41 UTC
Flex Carter wrote:
CCP, please show me on the doll where my Diemos touched you guys to warrant this drastic change. Geez X
They wanted to make absolutely sure that the people who haven't already switched from Diemosts to superior-in-almost-every-way Taloses do so now.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#595 - 2013-07-19 02:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
So did a rough check with the MWD bonus.
Ship one was a MWD Talos with Void Neutron blasters, it would have a 50% hit chance at Optimal + Falloff going 1529 M/s against a MWD Deimos going 1841 M/s using Null, which had a 80% hit chance.

With changing the MWD bonus to a 100% Increase to AB velocity bonus, the Talos could not hit the Deimos, the Deimos had a 80% hit chance while going 1120 m/s

Edit: A check using a Brutix and a Brutix navy issue, both were able to hit the AB enhanced Diemos. The Brutix had a 22% hit chance using Null @ 15km going 1231 M/s, the brutix navy issue had a 32% hit chance @ 15km going 1570 M/s

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#596 - 2013-07-19 02:38:59 UTC
Apocryphal Noise wrote:
Great, another minidominix to abuse drone assign.


Are you ok with how drone assign works?

For the sake of this game I sure hope the answer is "no".

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#597 - 2013-07-19 02:51:49 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So did a rough check with the MWD bonus.
Ship one was a MWD Talos with Void Neutron blasters, it would have a 50% hit chance at Optimal + Falloff going 1529 M/s against a MWD Deimos going 1841 M/s using Null, which had a 80% hit chance.

With changing the MWD bonus to a 100% Increase to AB velocity bonus, the Talos could not hit the Deimos, the Deimos had a 80% hit chance while going 1120 m/s

Edit: A check using a Brutix and a Brutix navy issue, both were able to hit the AB enhanced Diemos. The Brutix had a 22% hit chance using Null @ 15km going 1231 M/s, the brutix navy issue had a 32% hit chance @ 15km going 1570 M/s


...and suddenly a Huggin decloaks and you are going nowhere...

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Rn Bonnet
Perkone
Caldari State
#598 - 2013-07-19 02:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rn Bonnet
Oh BTW since the t1 cruiser hulls are often 50% faster than there base hull for a lot of these ships the MWD sig bonus just puts them on par with the t1 hull in terms of tracking. Make them all at least as fast as the t1 hull and we will be talking.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#599 - 2013-07-19 02:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Unsure about Deimos and Vagabond changes.

Armor deimos can fit a web and not lose the cap booster, which makes up for not having a neut. But armor Deimoses are still Diemosts because if they want to fit gank they will die horrible and if they fit tank they'll still die horribly because they still won't be that tanky.

Shield Deimos either gets more tank, cap stability or can also fit a web to make up for not having a neut. but TE nerf already hit it pretty hard and even before the TE nerf it was only projecting damage roughly as well as a 425mm Auto Hurricane. I was really hoping for the Thorax's tracking bonus to transfer to the Deimos. As it stands, Kiting Deimos will lose to other kiters post TE nerf and brawling deimos applies damage worse than a thorax... So my question is, what exactly is the Deimos specialising over the Thorax?


ASB bonus on vaga is GREAT for my vaga fits, but to be honest it's borderline overpowered. I'm guessing one of the other motivating factors may have been to distinguish the Vaga from the Cynabal, but what the Vaga really needed was a capacitor bonus. At the moment it's almost compulsory to fit a deadspace mwd to be able to fly around for any significant amount of time. I'm personally happy for you to keep the ASB bonus on the vaga because I will be having a complete ball with my Vagas, but from a balance perspective... yeah.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#600 - 2013-07-19 02:54:26 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
So did a rough check with the MWD bonus.
Ship one was a MWD Talos with Void Neutron blasters, it would have a 50% hit chance at Optimal + Falloff going 1529 M/s against a MWD Deimos going 1841 M/s using Null, which had a 80% hit chance.

With changing the MWD bonus to a 100% Increase to AB velocity bonus, the Talos could not hit the Deimos, the Deimos had a 80% hit chance while going 1120 m/s

Edit: A check using a Brutix and a Brutix navy issue, both were able to hit the AB enhanced Diemos. The Brutix had a 22% hit chance using Null @ 15km going 1231 M/s, the brutix navy issue had a 32% hit chance @ 15km going 1570 M/s


...and suddenly a Huggin decloaks and you are going nowhere...

because a MWD will work so much better Roll

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.