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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Oh My Boobs
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#501 - 2013-07-18 21:19:10 UTC
Please give 4 meds to the muninn.

Not only it needs it but its kinda odd that the T1 counter part (the rupture) has more meds than the T2 version.
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#502 - 2013-07-18 21:19:34 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:

It'd be a great idea to have missile ships represented--even using the sort of dual damage bonus a Scythe FI gets, but I think it's too tricky to bake that into a hull that gets 4x damage/application bonuses. I think the stat overload on have 4x missile bonuses and 4x projectile bonuses would be too much visually, too much to balance around, etc. I'm fairly certain that the Claymore changes (making it into a missile boat) is what CCP is going to say is the "interim" missile boat for Minmatar, along with the aforementioned Scythe FI, of course (and likely an updated Huginn I'd wager (Super Bellicose, anyone?).

Besides, the two Minmatar HACs do represent two aspects of Minmatar playstyle: one is a fast, kitey monster (which is absolutely Minmatar), while the other performs well as a high range, high alpha arty monster. Notice, though, that they both are monsters :)


Muninn is definitely not a monster, its terrible, the Tornado outclasses it and its alpha is weak at best.

The Vagabond is a kiting superfast monster? One word: Cynabal.



ASB Vaga > Cynabal.



Show me the ASB kiting vaga that beats the kiting Cynabal. (Legitimate request, I would like to run the numbers, and I haven't seen an ASB kiting vaga that wouldn't get alpha'd by any ABC)


I'd check out the fit that's been posted, I'm on my phone so I can't give you one. Bear in mind that my comment is based on the forthcoming changes; with those in mind, a LASB or XLASB Vaga will have half the sig and half again the active tank of a Cinnabon. I'm pretty sure they both get alpha'd horribly by abcs, but I could be wrong.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#503 - 2013-07-18 21:20:43 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

You said 'If HACs cost like 5 times more than Tech 1s they will be heavily used, but 10 times is to much!!1'. I showed you how HACs basically cost only 5 times the price of a Tech 1 cruiser. I don't care what a battleship costs, it fulfills a whole different role than a battlecruiser - Being able to take heavy fire and survive in fleet fights.

The theorem is not fulfilled by ship and fitting, it is fulfilled by hull itself. Fitting cost doesn't matter. You clearly don't understand that.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#504 - 2013-07-18 21:21:27 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
I don't think anyone suggested an either/or weapon system for the Muninn. Again, that directly contradicts the specialized nature of the Muninn. I think you're arguing with thin air, if that's what you're arguing against.

Would love to see some of your Muninn killmails, Maximus Andendare, otherwise I think you're EFT-warrioring instead of telling us about your actual experiences with the ship.

I'd still rather have a Hurricane any day of the week.
My argument is that you seemed to wanted to switch the Muninn to a missile boat. I countered that there is racial flavor in having both Minmatar HACs be projectile boats, but if one was to go missile, it could do so using an either/or weapon system, though that in itself would cause problems due to the 4x damage bonuses. This would likely not happen, since ScyFI, (rebalanced) Claymore and (rebalanced) Huginn will likely be effective as Minmatar missile boats, solving the "where's my Minmatar missile boat?" question. Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't advocating in making the Muninn a missile boat, though, for the record.

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Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#505 - 2013-07-18 21:24:04 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

You said 'If HACs cost like 5 times more than Tech 1s they will be heavily used, but 10 times is to much!!1'. I showed you how HACs basically cost only 5 times the price of a Tech 1 cruiser. I don't care what a battleship costs, it fulfills a whole different role than a battlecruiser - Being able to take heavy fire and survive in fleet fights.

The theorem is not fulfilled by ship and fitting, it is fulfilled by hull itself. Fitting cost doesn't matter. You clearly don't understand that.




So you're demanding that Tech 2 cruisers are as cheap as, ... i don't know, a battlecruiser?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#506 - 2013-07-18 21:24:11 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
What are the reasons to choose one of these new HACs over an aBC?


You have too much money and or you dont like flying ships that don't suck


Ships that don't suck? Have you SEEN the T1 cruisers? They are far superior to HACs when cost is considered. In some cases they are simply better than their T2 variants, cost be damned.

Apparently the applied damage with the buffed medium weapons will be superior to the applied damage from an ABC's large guns vs medium/small targets


I'm skeptical, look at the EFT damage graph. 135m sig and 1750m/s? Thats not a reasonable speed for that sig (MWD speed without MWD sig?)

Plus a Muninn has about a 3k alpha, vs a 1400 Nado you get about 15k

I'm just taking the information at face value. I'm not going to make any judgements myself until I have a chance to test it.

I think a lot of the equation will boil down to what the target is and how it's fitted/being used. Back in the day I used to enjoy flying Munin's in specialized gangs on occasion, even when they were fairly problematic. I'd really like for this to give them new life in certain roles.

The same goes for the Eagle and the Cerb.

We'll see.

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Christopher Newport
Equalization Solutions
#507 - 2013-07-18 21:26:40 UTC
I'm curious about the decision with the Vaga to give it an active shield tanking bonus when it's already a weak capacitor boat. Does anyone actually fly them with an active shield tank?
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#508 - 2013-07-18 21:26:41 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
I'm on my phone

Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
half the sig and half again the active tank of a Cinnabon.


haha
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#509 - 2013-07-18 21:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aloe Cloveris
doublepost
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#510 - 2013-07-18 21:28:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarkelias Anophius
Aloe Cloveris wrote:
doublepost



wat

I'm pretty sure the ship is called a Cinnabon
Anaphylacti
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#511 - 2013-07-18 21:28:54 UTC
can we get some more speed on eagle and munin 175-185 compared to the next lowest at 205...
JEFFRAIDER
THIGH GUYS
#512 - 2013-07-18 21:29:56 UTC
Anaphylacti wrote:
can we get some more speed on eagle and munin 175-185 compared to the next lowest at 205...


i completely disagree with this
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#513 - 2013-07-18 21:32:20 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Sacrilege changes are not enough, it is still bad. do something else with it or it will now have replaced the eagle as the worst hac

rest are decent changes though


Yeah Sacrileges are really bad. Need some buff more. Ditch the capacity bonus and give it explosion radius or velocity one.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#514 - 2013-07-18 21:33:00 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
I don't think anyone suggested an either/or weapon system for the Muninn. Again, that directly contradicts the specialized nature of the Muninn. I think you're arguing with thin air, if that's what you're arguing against.

Would love to see some of your Muninn killmails, Maximus Andendare, otherwise I think you're EFT-warrioring instead of telling us about your actual experiences with the ship.

I'd still rather have a Hurricane any day of the week.
My argument is that you seemed to wanted to switch the Muninn to a missile boat. I countered that there is racial flavor in having both Minmatar HACs be projectile boats, but if one was to go missile, it could do so using an either/or weapon system, though that in itself would cause problems due to the 4x damage bonuses. This would likely not happen, since ScyFI, (rebalanced) Claymore and (rebalanced) Huginn will likely be effective as Minmatar missile boats, solving the "where's my Minmatar missile boat?" question. Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't advocating in making the Muninn a missile boat, though, for the record.


The cyclone, talwar, breacher, bellicose and typhoon (not to mention the hound) are now all dedicated missile boats without split weapon systems. I think the Minmatar missile flavor has changed drastically in the past few updates so I'd vehemently disagree than any Minmatar missile boat has to be an either/or system (that is false on the face of it).

So.... where' my Minmatar missile HAC?
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
JEFFRAIDER
THIGH GUYS
#515 - 2013-07-18 21:33:01 UTC
Anaphylacti wrote:
can we get some more speed on eagle and munin 175-185 compared to the next lowest at 205...


troll post please ignore him
Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#516 - 2013-07-18 21:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sakura Nihil
On the whole, I like this. However, it feels like the Deimos is getting nerfed more than boosted.

Noticeably, it's losing its utility highslot (which is normally a small Nos) right before the Nos are likely to get boosted, as well as loosing a substantial amount of armor and hull HP. Even if we get a small cap booster into that 4th mid, it's going to make a ship that's already tough to keep alive even flimsier, discourging its traditional close-range role.

Glory

Faded Light is recruiting
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#517 - 2013-07-18 21:35:07 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
I don't think anyone suggested an either/or weapon system for the Muninn. Again, that directly contradicts the specialized nature of the Muninn. I think you're arguing with thin air, if that's what you're arguing against.

Would love to see some of your Muninn killmails, Maximus Andendare, otherwise I think you're EFT-warrioring instead of telling us about your actual experiences with the ship.

I'd still rather have a Hurricane any day of the week.
My argument is that you seemed to wanted to switch the Muninn to a missile boat. I countered that there is racial flavor in having both Minmatar HACs be projectile boats, but if one was to go missile, it could do so using an either/or weapon system, though that in itself would cause problems due to the 4x damage bonuses. This would likely not happen, since ScyFI, (rebalanced) Claymore and (rebalanced) Huginn will likely be effective as Minmatar missile boats, solving the "where's my Minmatar missile boat?" question. Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't advocating in making the Muninn a missile boat, though, for the record.


The cyclone, talwar, breacher, bellicose and typhoon (not to mention the hound) are now all dedicated missile boats without split weapon systems. I think the Minmatar missile flavor has changed drastically in the past few updates so I'd vehemently disagree than any Minmatar missile boat has to be an either/or system (that is false on the face of it).

So.... where' my Minmatar missile HAC?


In purgatory with the Loki missile sub.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#518 - 2013-07-18 21:35:38 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
So you're demanding that Tech 2 cruisers are as cheap as, ... i don't know, a battlecruiser?

No. A BC costs around 45 mil isk. I am looking for them to cost around 75-85 mil isk. It is a specialized Hull. It does have significant abilities a Cruiser doesn't. However a BC has abilities a HAC doesn't. Namely in fitting and tank. It still retains its pain cost when lost. It is just a little more reasonably priced for it's effectiveness.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#519 - 2013-07-18 21:35:40 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

You said 'If HACs cost like 5 times more than Tech 1s they will be heavily used, but 10 times is to much!!1'. I showed you how HACs basically cost only 5 times the price of a Tech 1 cruiser. I don't care what a battleship costs, it fulfills a whole different role than a battlecruiser - Being able to take heavy fire and survive in fleet fights.

The theorem is not fulfilled by ship and fitting, it is fulfilled by hull itself. Fitting cost doesn't matter. You clearly don't understand that.




So you're demanding that Tech 2 cruisers are as cheap as, ... i don't know, a battlecruiser?


Yes, otherwise BCs and t1 cruisers will be used instead as the performance increase for the price you're asked to pay just isn't there at all.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#520 - 2013-07-18 21:38:31 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

You said 'If HACs cost like 5 times more than Tech 1s they will be heavily used, but 10 times is to much!!1'. I showed you how HACs basically cost only 5 times the price of a Tech 1 cruiser. I don't care what a battleship costs, it fulfills a whole different role than a battlecruiser - Being able to take heavy fire and survive in fleet fights.

The theorem is not fulfilled by ship and fitting, it is fulfilled by hull itself. Fitting cost doesn't matter. You clearly don't understand that.




So you're demanding that Tech 2 cruisers are as cheap as, ... i don't know, a battlecruiser?


Yes, otherwise BCs and t1 cruisers will be used instead as the performance increase for the price you're asked to pay just isn't there at all.



At the very least they need to come down to the 80-90m range. Otherwise they're just not worth getting.

I won't discuss how many are in my hangar, though.