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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Odyssey 1.1] Medium Rail, Beam and Artillery rebalance

First post First post First post
Author
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#521 - 2013-09-06 13:45:02 UTC
Alice Doombringer wrote:
no i compared right those things.. cruise missiles does less dps than medium beam laser with legion.


Cruise missiles on what ship?

My experience of the new cruise missiles is that they are devastating at all ranges.

Can you provide some numbers so we can check your claim?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#522 - 2013-09-06 19:16:05 UTC
Well if you want some numbers.. my friend geared up legion and got with her skills 1050 something dps out of her legion. i made up navy raven geared with full set of cruise missiles and the added low slots with ballistic control systems. i used evehq to run what it is with max skills for the cruise missiles... got about 907 dps
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#523 - 2013-09-06 20:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Alice Doombringer wrote:
Well if you want some numbers.. my friend geared up legion and got with her skills 1050 something dps out of her legion. i made up navy raven geared with full set of cruise missiles and the added low slots with ballistic control systems. i used evehq to run what it is with max skills for the cruise missiles... got about 907 dps


1050 dps from a beam laser legion? I'm afraid to tell you that your friend can't add up.

EDIT: double checked this in EveHQ

A legion with T2 beams, gleam (range 12km), 4x CHELM's Modified Heat Sink and a headful of 6% implants emits 928dps, 1091 if you overheat the guns.

So yeah, you can get 1050 something dps from a legion with no tank, no range and horrible tracking. It will do that for a few minutes until the guns burn out.

It will cost you 17 billion isk to fit and you'll lose it to a T1 cruiser.

Doing the equivalent stupidity with a raven gets you 1150dps at any range to 166km unheated. Closer to 1400dps with overheat. It will also have north of 100k ehp.

[Legion, beam max]
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating

6x Heavy Beam Laser II (Gleam M)

4x Chelm's Modified Heat SinkShocked
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

[Statistics - level 5, overheated]

Effective HP: 44,753 (Eve: 31,030)
Tank Ability: 13.66 DPS
Shield Resists - EM: 12.50%, Ex: 89.06%, Ki: 73.75%, Th: 30.00%
Armor Resists - EM: 57.50%, Ex: 83.00%, Ki: 68.13%, Th: 44.75%

Capacitor (Lasts 6m 13s)

Volley Damage: 2,796.11
DPS: 1,091.92

[Implants - beam master]

Slot 6: Hardwiring - Zainou 'Sharpshooter' ZMX1100
Slot 7: Eifyr and Co. 'Gunslinger' Motion Prediction MR-706
Slot 8: Inherent Implants 'Lancer' Medium Energy Turret ME-806
Slot 9: Inherent Implants 'Lancer' Gunnery RF-906

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#524 - 2013-09-06 20:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Doombringer
or eve can't add up... cos its straight from eve. Are you Amarrian? If so it might be u don't wanna believe or it woulc call nerf on beam. And don't use evehq for medium turret calcs.. it isn't updated yet for it. so figures are from ingame.
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#525 - 2013-09-06 20:36:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
edited my post with numbers from the newly updated EveHQ. Using odyessy 1.1 data.

Your friend is sadly mistaken.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#526 - 2013-09-06 21:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Doombringer
the legion was incursion used legion.. so relies on logis to do teh job. and aint it bit overpower anyways if 6 medium beams can compete with 8 cruise missiles?
Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#527 - 2013-09-06 21:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Doombringer
what im more worried here tough is the fact that i soon shall demand my caldari point being reimbursed.. cos damn caldari missile boats sucks at pvp. and missile boats ain't favored in incursions. Only thing they are used is the missioning pretty much. but so can other races do missions and turret ships are wery favored in incursions and in pvp.
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#528 - 2013-09-06 22:16:19 UTC
Alice Doombringer wrote:
the legion was incursion used legion.. so relies on logis to do teh job. and aint it bit overpower anyways if 6 medium beams can compete with 8 cruise missiles?


Sorry, how do medium beams compete? In the example given they have a range of 14km and the modules required to make them get that much damage cost 16 BILLION isk. And they still do less damage than cruise missiles with T2 ballistics, which have a range of 160km.



Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#529 - 2013-09-06 23:28:16 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


4x Chelm's Modified Heat SinkShocked


Ladies & Gentlemen:

We have a winner!!Big smileBlinkPirate
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#530 - 2013-09-06 23:33:53 UTC
Meyr wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


4x Chelm's Modified Heat SinkShocked


Ladies & Gentlemen:

We have a winner!!Big smileBlinkPirate

go check out his other fits in command ships topic , as good as this...
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#531 - 2013-09-07 00:18:09 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Meyr wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


4x Chelm's Modified Heat SinkShocked


Ladies & Gentlemen:

We have a winner!!Big smileBlinkPirate

go check out his other fits in command ships topic , as good as this...


F*ck off and read the post properly. I was proving a point. Smile

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#532 - 2013-09-07 01:36:49 UTC
well if we consider pvp situation.. what will you get accomplished with 160km range? nothing. all your targets can escape wery well.. some even before missiles have landed. most of the pvp fight i have had on my hands been close range where missiles can't compete at all... on long range fights if the opponent decided to stand still... on distance of 160km where some long range large turrets can really hit.. lands 3-5 hits before those missiles have arrived on its target.
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#533 - 2013-09-07 07:56:48 UTC
Alice Doombringer wrote:
well if we consider pvp situation.. what will you get accomplished with 160km range? nothing. all your targets can escape wery well.. some even before missiles have landed. most of the pvp fight i have had on my hands been close range where missiles can't compete at all... on long range fights if the opponent decided to stand still... on distance of 160km where some long range large turrets can really hit.. lands 3-5 hits before those missiles have arrived on its target.


There are many pvp situations.

You're right, a cruise raven is likely to be used in a fleet, but then so is a beam legion.

The best thing is to try these things out on sisi. The weapons systems behave in a way that's not immediately obvious from playing with EFT.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#534 - 2013-09-07 09:21:16 UTC
150 dps vs 16 bill.... hmmmmmmmmm
Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#535 - 2013-09-07 13:58:51 UTC
well if we would put up 3x heavy missile tengus versus 3x beam legions or pulse legions... which one prolly would win on distance that would in theory prevent both parties from escaping? :P i would still bet on legions same if we put those tengus fight proteuses...
Meyr
Pirannha Corp
#536 - 2013-09-07 17:55:33 UTC
Can we see that Raven fit?

Big smileBlink
Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#537 - 2013-09-09 12:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Doombringer
Well to just compare dps... u don't need wery special raven fit... just fill high slots with launchers and low slots ballistic control systems... if u want add then full missile rig set there... (which isn't really feasible option in real go) on mid slots u don't need anything for testing dps
Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#538 - 2013-09-09 12:59:01 UTC
Turret ships have also wide variety of modules to help them... there is those heatsinks, tracking computers, remote tracking links... eve ntarget painter can help turret. what we have for missiles? ballistic control and target painter. no range extension for example.. nor flying speed improvements to get closer to turrets insta hit. You could claim that missiles hits always when in range. For many respects turrets and missiles are under same rules.. target speed affects to both, target size affects to both. you try to compensate that target speed by increasing tracking speed. while missiles have nothing really to modify effects of targets speed on missile. you could call immediately webs.. but webs are used also by turrets. target size modifier? there is painters that can work for both. and so much more... for this i don't take skills nor rigs into picture.
Mournful Conciousness
TOHA Heavy Industries
Blades of Grass
#539 - 2013-09-09 13:46:55 UTC
Alice Doombringer wrote:
Turret ships have also wide variety of modules to help them... there is those heatsinks, tracking computers, remote tracking links... eve ntarget painter can help turret. what we have for missiles? ballistic control and target painter. no range extension for example.. nor flying speed improvements to get closer to turrets insta hit. You could claim that missiles hits always when in range. For many respects turrets and missiles are under same rules.. target speed affects to both, target size affects to both. you try to compensate that target speed by increasing tracking speed. while missiles have nothing really to modify effects of targets speed on missile. you could call immediately webs.. but webs are used also by turrets. target size modifier? there is painters that can work for both. and so much more... for this i don't take skills nor rigs into picture.



You are correct that missiles don't have an equivalent of a tracking computer.

Neither are missiles affected by tracking disruptors, so you could call that even.

Missile ships can also launch FoF missiles, which give them something to do while they are ECM-jammed.

The two weapons systems are very different in the way they apply damage to moving targets.

None of this matters of course. In a real pvp fight, which is almost never 1v1, individual comparisons of the last 5% of the effectiveness of a weapons system are irrelevant.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#540 - 2013-09-09 14:49:36 UTC
Alice Doombringer wrote:
well if we would put up 3x heavy missile tengus versus 3x beam legions or pulse legions... which one prolly would win on distance that would in theory prevent both parties from escaping? :P i would still bet on legions same if we put those tengus fight proteuses...



If all combat was happenign inside scrambling and web ranges.. then CCP sould not had to buff Blasters as they did some time ago.

Real eve is different, there is engagement in a lot of distanes. THe close range one is not the rule, its just the most lethal variety of it.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"