EVE Information Portal

Which has historically been more than enough reason to choose one hauler over another.

Which part of this (excellent) post do you not understand?

The issue of not understanding is not on my part.

I completely comprehend why the indys weren't given to ORE.

I wouldn't be able to form coherent arguments against these change if I didn't understand them.

You just don't seem to be understanding the simple arguements I'm making against them.

For Older players, this is a buff.
For Newer players this changes nothing. Train Gal Indy and be done with it.

Same problem before the changes. If you don't have the resources, then don't bother.

How is Amarr getting shafted. I have Amarr industrials up to 5 and I’m super happy. In Bestower I get best general cargo capacity, with cargo containers I can carry +50k of cargo, only some 20% less then specialised Gallente or Minamatar hulls. And in Sigil I get best tank.

Also how would showing Iti 2-4 to Ore improve balance? If that was done Iti I would have to be made almost same as Sigil and Iti V almost same as Bestower to create balance between races, and that would mean homogenisation. Hawing asymmetric number of hulls among races actually helps maintaining racial balance while simultaneously avoiding making all industrials same because you can compensate lack of performance in general cargo hulls with access to specialised hulls.

With Rise's system now you actuality have to make meaningfully choice when you elect your industrial race. Do you want best overall general cargo? Amarr is your choice. Do you want access to specialised cargo carriers and don’t really care that much about general cargo? Gallente is your choice then. Do you simply want best speed and align times on your industrials? Well Minmatar is there for you. No race is redundant, each has it own niche. And is much more interesting then each race having two of the same industrials, and dumping any trace of diversity among them to Ore corporation (and Ore as separate ship line independent of 4 empires is itself a stupid idea that should have never been added to the game, but that is altogether different runt)

Except, of course, that not understanding an issue has never, ever, stopped someone from complaining.

Thats okay, you can keep on ignoring all of the people that have no use for the specialty bays and will train only what they need. They are obviously all wrong and lack your innate understanding of the situation.

Perhaps you'll take the time to explain to them how wrong it is to train for ships that serve the need they have, and instead should train for ships that either don't fit their needs or are inferior to the ships they would normally use.

So you'd prefer to do without the new specialty bays until some point in the future, even though they are done now?

I don't think that's going to be a very popular choice.

Skill points would likely be handled as they are now when a function changes in game. If the skills become worthless they'd be refunded, if the skills still have value then likely not.

The overall consensus in the thread was that doing something was preferable to leaving them as-is. We don't know yet how the changes will impact, that's something only the devs know. And there's no real 'SP-waste'. Everything is still only level 1 to operate. Something like an hour or two to fly every single ship mentioned in the thread if you want. That's a deal anywhere.

I'm not ignoring all of the people that have no use for the specialty bays. Never said they are all wrong. (Though they might lack understanding of opportunity costs)

I'll take the time right now to explain to them how wrong it is to train for ships that ONLY fit niche roles, when it is far more efficient to train something that suits all a users previous needs (after all itty 5 had best cargo before and wasn't changed in this round) PLUS possible future needs one might have.

What I am saying is that this was buff for older players that have already trained those racial skills previously and doesn't change the status quo for new players. The changes aren't large enough to justify training any other race over Gal.

The only skill refund that I can recall is the elimination of the Learning skills. There's not been a single skill refund for skills that have become less useful than before. There's many ships and modules that are a lot easier to use skill-wise these days than in days past, and i could probably save a month or two of training if I could remap my old character accordingly. The most recent example? Freighters used to require Industrial V to fly - now only Industrial III is required - making Levels 4 and 5 now wasted points if you never intended to fly Industrials or Transports.

So in light of past experiences, yes I'd rather wait a little while longer rather than it be rushed out.

Yeah would be better if the special bay ships became ore industrial ships and every race just has max cargo, max speed

While correct that the itty 5 no longer has the best cargo or speed, I am also correct in that it wasn't nerfed, everything else was buffed.

Again my argument was about efficiency. Best is meaningless when the differences are so small. Why train for the best in one area with such marginal differences when its far more likely that training for the most hulls would likely yield unforeseen benefits in the future?

And no, I don't know this situation is going to change in the future, nor do I know that the proper time and resources will ever be available. See I've been a player in Eve for long enough now that I've seen many promises from CCP that have never materialized. I am not foolish enough to believe them now.

I do however agree with you that most people now are more than happy with the changes since it means that a vast majority of the player base will be buffed, who wouldn't be happy with buffs?

That said, these changes still don't meet their stated goals, which is all I was saying, nothing more, nothing less.