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Why would anyone fly a Vargur?
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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-07-21 19:35:18 UTC
varg has poor range (same as mach) and even less dps

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#62 - 2013-07-21 19:40:43 UTC
"Poor range". In the same sentence with Mach... OK, now I understand you, but you should look into how falloff works and what is the proper way of fiting AC Mach/Varg.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-07-21 19:46:15 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
"Poor range". In the same sentence with Mach... OK, now I understand you, but you should look into how falloff works and what is the proper way of fiting AC Mach/Varg.


I know exactly how falloff works and I can tell you that a varg cannot compete with a domi that can fully apply 850+ DPS at 90km range

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#64 - 2013-07-21 19:51:48 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
"Poor range". In the same sentence with Mach... OK, now I understand you, but you should look into how falloff works and what is the proper way of fiting AC Mach/Varg.


I know exactly how falloff works and I can tell you that a varg cannot compete with a domi that can fully apply 850+ DPS at 90km range

And I can tell you it can. :) I tried both, among others, honestly.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-07-21 20:01:20 UTC
Well =/ numbers don't lie, only way for that to happen if that you're not flying the domi as it should be.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#66 - 2013-07-21 20:07:51 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Well =/ numbers don't lie, only way for that to happen if that you're not flying the domi as it should be.

Are you aware that this argument works both ways?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-07-21 20:36:49 UTC
I can't artificially make my vargur do more dps than is physically enabled by game mechanics so if the dominix has more dps past a certain range, it has more dps past that range.

Art of Explosions
Whitehound
#68 - 2013-07-21 20:45:40 UTC
*gets popcorn and makes a check list*

Checklist:

[y/n] ... mentions lack of overheating
[y/n] ... mentions lack of implants
[y/n] ... mentions lack of faction damage mods
[y/n] ... mentions drone vulnerability or NPC AI
[y/n] ... is fair
[y/n] ... is stubborn

Bonus points:
[y/n] ... mentions Dominix being over-powered
[y/n] ... uses alliance tournament as proof

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#69 - 2013-07-21 20:49:37 UTC
Q: Why would anyone fly a Vargur?

A: You would fly a Vargur if it was the best ship you had skills to fly for the task you wish to complete. /thread
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#70 - 2013-07-21 20:53:12 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I can't artificially make my vargur do more dps than is physically enabled by game mechanics so if the dominix has more dps past a certain range, it has more dps past that range.

By the same token, I can't squeeze more dps from sentries than is already allowed.

Facts remain, I flew new Domi on many missions and while it's really great, in terms of performance it lags behind a bit. Do I say Domi is bad? No! It's awesome for its price. But on the same missions Vargur still gets much better ticks. I could go into theorycrafting why, but in my opinion it would be waste of time. Final result is what counts.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#71 - 2013-07-21 20:57:02 UTC
Ohh noes, people fly the Vargur because it can salvage as it goes without sacrificing any slots for it! Not everyone uses multiple characters in EVE, and if they do having two damage ships is better than one damage and one salvage in terms of completion times.

Marauders have yet to be rebalanced as well so comparing them to other ships that has already undergone this balancing is somewhat strange. Sure it's about "what's good right now", but we know for a fact that Marauders will get looked into in the future.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-07-21 21:00:54 UTC
Yes but when we're talking about missions, your paper dps is far from the only factor in completion times.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#73 - 2013-07-22 06:14:16 UTC
I thought I've been stating clearly enough that to me the only factor in completion times I take care of is the completion time.

Vargur completes missions faster than Domi and many other ships. Q.E.D.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-07-22 11:40:46 UTC
But the numbers don't attest to that, so you're either doing something wrong or just blind to logic.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#75 - 2013-07-22 11:42:58 UTC
Enlighten me then. Show me correct numbers.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-07-22 12:16:03 UTC
Assuming no implants

Domi does 880 fully projected DPS to 87km of which 800 is immune to any kind of ewar (same thing cannot be said for varg)

Varg does a hilarious 450 dps with barrage at the same range so in fact a MWD is almost a requirement to flying one efficiently since it's not got the high base speed of a mach to make use of a deadspace 100mn AB.

The varg using faction short range projectile only starts breaking even with the domi at 27km, every single level 4 mission has spawns further than 27km.

Even if I use the most expensive implants available (pashans, +6%s) the varg still only breaks even at 40km

Adding a flight of lights (good luck with mediums not being blown up) it brings it up to 48km though that's still debatable whether or not they will survive that far out.

Now since the varg goes about 1.1kms that means you are regularly having to re-align and fly to your target to apply similar DPS the domi can at 87km

Art of Explosions
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#77 - 2013-07-22 12:49:34 UTC
Just wanted to add for anyone else following this thread who has their eye on a Vargur and is now getting worried... it's a fine mission boat. More than fine, as a matter of fact. People are arguing about top-tier time efficiency here. If that's your goal, you probably already knew that you weren't headed for a Vargur. But for a solid salvage-as-you-go mission runner, Varg is a wonderful boat. Don't worry about the fact that you can't hit out to 100k... your tractors only go 48k anyway.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#78 - 2013-07-22 14:04:26 UTC
@Tsukino: Not these numbers. Which part of "I care only about completion time" did you not get? Because this is what I asked for: completion time, tick value, average ISK/hr.

Your analysis, accurate and logical as it is, is precisely this theorycrafting I refuse to go into. And believe me or not, I'm better at it than you.

Bottom line is, if you have flown both ships then you should know results and could post them here. If you didn't fly either or neither, then why do you help spreading disinformation?
Hypercake Mix
#79 - 2013-07-22 16:30:09 UTC
Why would anyone fly a Vargur?
Because of the way the Vargur flies. Sometimes, you just fly ships that feel good to fly and not care about efficiency. And well, people could argue that it looks better than the Machariel.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2013-07-22 19:58:21 UTC
This thread is out of control...

♞