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Possible Winter 2011 changes (Exact stats)

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2011-10-26 21:27:26 UTC
Zagam wrote:

The typhoon is also almost always armor-tanked, which adds to its mass and inertia, while the Tempest is usually shield-tanked.

Decent skills can make it quite quick even when armor tanked, though yes, it's not as fast a a shield tempest, also it's gankfit capacity should not be ignored. My point being that calling it a slow PvE focused ship seems far from correct.
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#342 - 2011-10-26 21:44:00 UTC
Seen a bit of, "Blasters need more range to be viable in fleets." Serious question: why can't the blaster-boats warp in on top of the bulk of the enemy fleet, either by starting the fight well "behind" their own fleet so they can do a warp-to when the fight starts, or by starting the fight somewhere else entirely so they can do a warp-to on a group of "something fast and able to live just long enough" ships when the fight starts? I'm assuming its mostly lag (i.e. should be mitigated on the technical end rather than becoming a balancing factor) but is that an accurate assumption?

Granted that doesn't address the damage-vs-tracking-vs-ACs stuff, but it at least would give the blaster ships the ability to drop into the fight near their effective range and thus actually have a place in fleets (since their warp-to would presumably be right next to some high-value targets that weren't expecing to have their faces melted).

I'm guessing whatever reasons people have for not liking to do that are also what are keeping torpedo ships sidelined as well, and if it's mainly down to flaws in the technology or mechanics wouldn't it be best to first see if these can be fixed (and may be with stuff like TiDi)?
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#343 - 2011-10-26 22:49:20 UTC
Thelron wrote:
Seen a bit of, "Blasters need more range to be viable in fleets." Serious question: why can't the blaster-boats warp in on top of the bulk of the enemy fleet, either by starting the fight well "behind" their own fleet so they can do a warp-to when the fight starts, or by starting the fight somewhere else entirely so they can do a warp-to on a group of "something fast and able to live just long enough" ships when the fight starts? I'm assuming its mostly lag (i.e. should be mitigated on the technical end rather than becoming a balancing factor) but is that an accurate assumption?

Granted that doesn't address the damage-vs-tracking-vs-ACs stuff, but it at least would give the blaster ships the ability to drop into the fight near their effective range and thus actually have a place in fleets (since their warp-to would presumably be right next to some high-value targets that weren't expecing to have their faces melted).

I'm guessing whatever reasons people have for not liking to do that are also what are keeping torpedo ships sidelined as well, and if it's mainly down to flaws in the technology or mechanics wouldn't it be best to first see if these can be fixed (and may be with stuff like TiDi)?



the problem in big fleet fight is just that you can't fit 100 ships on one spot resulting in blaster boats having to always traverse some space before being able to apply damage and of curse the enemy fleet wants to increase that by moving away
at the same time a longer range fleet can be hitting for some damage the entire time the blaster ships are catching up
eventually this results in the ship being long dead before having dealt any damage

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#344 - 2011-10-26 23:24:24 UTC
Hmmmm. I could have sworn I read a few Dev blogs about assault ship bonuses, yet I didn't see any in the list?
Demon View
Doomheim
#345 - 2011-10-27 01:58:35 UTC
Thelron wrote:
Seen a bit of, "Blasters need more range to be viable in fleets." Serious question: why can't the blaster-boats warp in on top of the bulk of the enemy fleet,


No matter what you do, the longer-range fleet has Rock advantage.
Tinilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2011-10-27 03:37:07 UTC
Buffage to the Gal logi boat rocks my socks! Big smile
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2011-10-27 05:43:01 UTC
I'm posting just so I can say I was here.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2011-10-27 06:00:46 UTC
Thelron wrote:
Seen a bit of, "Blasters need more range to be viable in fleets." Serious question: why can't the blaster-boats warp in on top of the bulk of the enemy fleet, either by starting the fight well "behind" their own fleet so they can do a warp-to when the fight starts, or by starting the fight somewhere else entirely so they can do a warp-to on a group of "something fast and able to live just long enough" ships when the fight starts? I'm assuming its mostly lag (i.e. should be mitigated on the technical end rather than becoming a balancing factor) but is that an accurate assumption?

Granted that doesn't address the damage-vs-tracking-vs-ACs stuff, but it at least would give the blaster ships the ability to drop into the fight near their effective range and thus actually have a place in fleets (since their warp-to would presumably be right next to some high-value targets that weren't expecing to have their faces melted).

I'm guessing whatever reasons people have for not liking to do that are also what are keeping torpedo ships sidelined as well, and if it's mainly down to flaws in the technology or mechanics wouldn't it be best to first see if these can be fixed (and may be with stuff like TiDi)?


Blasters are never going to be large fleet fare......the range just isn't there.

Even in small gang which is their "thing" you basically warp to 0 on the tackler, now if that tackler is say a interdiction boosted ceptor, he is likely 30km out to start with, and the target is still burning full speed, you may land 50-60km out. Warp to 0 is 0 from when you initiate warp, not where they are when you land.

So even if you DO get a good warp in with your blaster Brutix of doom (I fly them regularly) the guy you land on is already going full speed, you are stopped, so they may or may not be inside your 10km engagement range by the time you target them, get moving and start to apply pew.

This is a little better with large blasters that have about a 20km range with shortrange ammo, but you still have to break and chase down the next target EVERY single time. Its just the nature of the beast.

So making the ships a little faster may help in small gangs (which I'm fine with) but you still aren't going to see a lot of fleet operation.

I may (finally) fit a railgun on a PvP boat though, its been a LONG while since that happened above a frigate.
Planktal
Kenshao Industries
#349 - 2011-10-27 07:09:49 UTC
Wasn't it 10 blaster fit Thorax that kicked BoB's butt in the alliance tournament several years ago?

Here sanity, nice sanity.....THWOOK Got the bastard
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2011-10-27 10:35:09 UTC
To train for T2 small hybrids and up, or T2 large autocannons?
Hmmm....
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2011-10-27 10:44:02 UTC
Planktal wrote:
Wasn't it 10 blaster fit Thorax that kicked BoB's butt in the alliance tournament several years ago?


That tournament had a set of rules that don't apply in standard pvp.
Ann133566
Doomheim
#352 - 2011-10-27 11:24:52 UTC
Daredevil is going to be an intersting ship.....
TR4D3R4LT
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#353 - 2011-10-27 14:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: TR4D3R4LT
Onictus wrote:
Blasters are never going to be large fleet fare......the range just isn't there.

Even in small gang which is their "thing" you basically warp to 0 on the tackler, now if that tackler is say a interdiction boosted ceptor, he is likely 30km out to start with, and the target is still burning full speed, you may land 50-60km out. Warp to 0 is 0 from when you initiate warp, not where they are when you land.

So even if you DO get a good warp in with your blaster Brutix of doom (I fly them regularly) the guy you land on is already going full speed, you are stopped, so they may or may not be inside your 10km engagement range by the time you target them, get moving and start to apply pew.

This is a little better with large blasters that have about a 20km range with shortrange ammo, but you still have to break and chase down the next target EVERY single time. Its just the nature of the beast.

So making the ships a little faster may help in small gangs (which I'm fine with) but you still aren't going to see a lot of fleet operation.

I may (finally) fit a railgun on a PvP boat though, its been a LONG while since that happened above a frigate.



This man nails the head. No matter how nice "I was there" eve video looks, it takes complete stupidity out of opposing side to not kite blaster fits. Blasters shine on gate, bait, whatever else games where your target is not going anywhere, trouble is all other weapon systems shine there too, blasters just finish the job tad quicker. If CCP actually looked at things that are in game, name race ewar drones (not ecm, they're fine altho pain in the behind) but painting, neuting and webbing ones. Perhaps realize they dont work well ever since ewar was nerfed to have stacking penalty. So 5x light web drones of webs *less* then one mid slot mod. Same for painting drones, ever since cap was boosted overall neuting drones are useless too. Now if we had situation where gallente boats, who have big drone bays actually could use said drones to something else then damage. I dont know, perhaps webbing, which in turn slows things down possibly up and beyond 50 km away? But noo, dont fix ewar drones, try to forget they exist as possible way to "even score" and instead fiddle around with ship speeds.

Instead of ship speed boost and balance agi nerf, perhaps add gallente ships have unique property, the web drone ewar from the ships deployed web drones doesnt have stacking penalty? Blimey! Now the buggers can perhaps catch something out of web range and mwd to blaster range while target has to make call, either destroy the drones in hopes of escaping OR keep applying dps on incoming blaster boat in hope to nuke him before. Do the same for minmatar for target painting goodness(as if they needed it.) Boost amarr neut drones a bit so they actually make impact in numbers fewer then 50?

Sure sure, perhaps peeps will just warp away with suddenly provided web-sling but hey, imho that's better then losing your blaster ship to out of blaster range kiting guy.

It's not rocket science to balance the game and it's scenarios if you actually use things already IN-game and just fix them from the state last nerf xyz (in case of ewar drones, ewar [mainly damp] nerf) caused. That was 2007 btw...

*edit*

Had to fix this as I went to look at client, shooting myself to feet while doing so. Web drones were minmatar and true ewar drones to match races were sensor damp, tracking distrupt, paint and ecm. My bad but damp still would work wonders restricting the engage distance. But it's not web as one still can kite at the edge of damp range if it's not below web range. Still the heavy web drone has 20% strength and each drone goes right away to layers of stacking penalty, in addition to whatever mods you have on the target *if* they ever catch with it. This requires some testing but I'm not supriced if I get some "lolwtf" killmails from my own boats when mixing web + damp drones on it with 3-2 mix...
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#354 - 2011-10-27 15:48:55 UTC
Are autocannons or HAMs used in large fleet warfare?

Use rails in fleet warfare. Since I'm not the fleet warfare expert, is the proposed 10% buff in dps (plus the easing of fitting requirements)enough to allow Gallente hulls back into fleets?
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#355 - 2011-10-27 16:13:31 UTC
[quote=TR4D3R4LT][quote=Onictus]stuffquote]

This is the problem, damp/disrupt/web should be more useful for gallente ships, forcing the opponent into close range.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#356 - 2011-10-27 16:14:24 UTC
TR4D3R4LT wrote:


Instead of ship speed boost and balance agi nerf, perhaps add gallente ships have unique property, the web drone ewar from the ships deployed web drones doesnt have stacking penalty? Blimey! Now the buggers can perhaps catch something out of web range and mwd to blaster range while target has to make call, either destroy the drones in hopes of escaping OR keep applying dps on incoming blaster boat in hope to nuke him before. Do the same for minmatar for target painting goodness(as if they needed it.) Boost amarr neut drones a bit so they actually make impact in numbers fewer then 50?

Sure sure, perhaps peeps will just warp away with suddenly provided web-sling but hey, imho that's better then losing your blaster ship to out of blaster range kiting guy.


DEVS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THAT... Web without stacking penalty would be an awesome thing for gallante
Yvan Ratamnim
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#357 - 2011-10-27 16:17:30 UTC
CCP Spitfire wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
While i understand most of you are excited about those new changes would't it be prudent just to wait till the definite stats and other changes are in a dev blog , Othererwise alot of you will be very dissapointed when CCPdecides to change some numbers at the last moment


This would be a very sensible approach, yes. Smile We will be releasing more information on all those changes in the coming days or weeks before they arrive on the Singularity test server.



hehe buy you guys arent as fast as sisi cache leaks lol...

Atleast with these leaks and this thread i hope the devs are watching to see what pre-release complaints are creaping up and adjust accordingly before they hit SISI...

CCP has changed, perhaps they will head caution from the playerbase in cases like this, from the people who fly these ships daily.
Sunviking
Doomheim
#358 - 2011-10-27 18:37:35 UTC
Hmmmm

I am Caldari, and Railguns may be getting a 10% Alpha boost.

Should I bother training Hybrids when the expansion is released, or should I just stick with Missiles?

10.4million SP in Missiles, next to nothing in Gunnery exept for Advanced Weapon Upgrades...

The Agony of Choice.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#359 - 2011-10-27 23:57:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
Sunviking wrote:
Hmmmm

I am Caldari, and Railguns may be getting a 10% Alpha boost.

Should I bother training Hybrids when the expansion is released, or should I just stick with Missiles?

10.4million SP in Missiles, next to nothing in Gunnery exept for Advanced Weapon Upgrades...

The Agony of Choice.



short : stick to missiles

long:
if they would boost rails to a point where they could compete with missiles they would need to boost all other long range guns as well

since HMs still do 462dps at 73, 250rails on a ferox only do 198 with recent leak data

even with antimatter which gives the 250s 342dps their still 100dps lower
and don't have the ability to switch damage types

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2011-10-28 00:29:28 UTC
Crazy KSK wrote:
Sunviking wrote:
Hmmmm

I am Caldari, and Railguns may be getting a 10% Alpha boost.

Should I bother training Hybrids when the expansion is released, or should I just stick with Missiles?

10.4million SP in Missiles, next to nothing in Gunnery exept for Advanced Weapon Upgrades...

The Agony of Choice.



short : stick to missiles

long:
if they would boost rails to a point where they could compete with missiles they would need to boost all other long range guns as well

since HMs still do 462dps at 73, 250rails on a ferox only do 198 with recent leak data

even with antimatter which gives the 250s 342dps their still 100dps lower
and don't have the ability to switch damage types



Agreed, blasters are almost there, rails need another 10% (at least) and an additional ROF bonus to be worthy