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One of Eve's real problems-- Devaluation of the isk

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Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#81 - 2011-10-29 11:53:55 UTC
We need more things like hulkageddon and current goon ice coup to make isk valuable again.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#82 - 2011-10-29 15:34:25 UTC
Woo Glin wrote:
Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost.


Base mineral cost doesn't measure an outflow of isk from the game.
Woo Glin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#83 - 2011-10-29 16:59:43 UTC
Wyke Mossari wrote:
Woo Glin wrote:
Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost.


Insurance pays out more ISK than it costs, therefore it is a net increase in the money supply.

The ISK you pay out to another player for ship or minerals remain in the money supply (less modest taxes).

Therefore there is net increase in the money supply.

Faucets and sinks measured are in relation to money supply not your wallet.

If you don't believe posters here that have told you otherwise, then read the QEN (Page 19)




Damnit dude I had high hopes for this one.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#84 - 2011-10-29 17:25:09 UTC
Date Rotsuda wrote:
Insurances should be managed by players and not "npc" ?



Only an idiot would do insurance in Eve. Or the majority of players would become uninsurable.

'You've had /how/ many ships blown up in the last 12 weeks?'

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Claire Voyant
#85 - 2011-10-29 20:09:36 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Only an idiot would do insurance in Eve.'

Hey, some of those idiots are our friends. We're the only ones allowed to call them idiots.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#86 - 2011-10-30 02:01:52 UTC
Meh gods OK Econ nerd hat on. Isk is a commodity like any other commodity in the game. It's value is a relation between the amount of Isk in the game and the amount of everything else. So the only thing that can devalue isk is the introduction of more isk. PLEX just changes the location of assets not their value. So how does isk enter the game? Bounties and mission rewards pretty much. Everything you buy or sell just transitions existent isk from player to player. PLEX transitions real world money into isk but has no affect on the available isk. How does isk leave the game? Skillbook purchases, BPO purchases and LP purchases (the ones that include isk, tags are another matter). If I am missing one point it out because this is actually kind of interesting to my twisted little brain. Since there aer a lot more bounties being earned than skills, BPOs, Faction items being purchased inflation is pretty much pre-destined. To constrict the currency market (err reverse inflation, make there be less iskies) there would have to be a new way for isk to leave the game. Something NPCs sell that players want.
If (and this is a big if) you want to halt inflation.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#87 - 2011-10-30 02:04:35 UTC
Brainfart, and destruction of assets, That also removes isk from the economy. Nothing else I can think og ATM.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#88 - 2011-10-30 02:19:39 UTC
Destruction of assets doesn't remove ISK from the economy. It removes Value, but not ISK. Assets just move ISK around. You can't turn ISK into assets, except via NPCs.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#89 - 2011-10-30 05:05:56 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Destruction of assets doesn't remove ISK from the economy. It removes Value, but not ISK. Assets just move ISK around. You can't turn ISK into assets, except via NPCs.

double brainfart, quite right Steve if anything it should increase inflation ad it introduces isk (insurance) and removes assets. So actually Hulkmageddon is inflationary. Can anybody think of any other ways Iskies leave the game???

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Levija Saplina
Ken Interplanetary Communication
#90 - 2011-10-30 07:49:10 UTC
The biggest thing that removes isk from the game is actually taxes.

Taxes on anything sold and bought in the market and everything else that involves the use of NPC services, including the fees that people have to pay for station offices, sovereignty rents, etc.
Taxes on contracts also take out a nice amount of isk everyday from the system.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#91 - 2011-10-30 15:14:06 UTC
Something that might be interesting, would be instead of being able to move currency electronically, between regions/empires/other block, you had to physically move it.

Or some kind of taxation on an electronic move that you didn't get on the physical. Course, with the physical, you can have it blown up. Makes some isk actually destroyable (or capturable. I'd suggest some kind of fence mechanism to take it. so you lose a chunk of the value.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Adunh Slavy
#92 - 2011-10-30 15:51:15 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Something that might be interesting, would be instead of being able to move currency electronically, between regions/empires/other block, you had to physically move it.

Or some kind of taxation on an electronic move that you didn't get on the physical. Course, with the physical, you can have it blown up. Makes some isk actually destroyable (or capturable. I'd suggest some kind of fence mechanism to take it. so you lose a chunk of the value.)



There was a discussion in General about having something like "gold". May want to find that thread and throw this idea in there, may have some potential.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2011-10-30 17:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinaculus
While it would go against the grain of the founding principal of the game universe, CCP could easily control inflation/deflation/bubbles without anyone being the wiser. If they wanted to remove ISK from the game, they just need to pick an item in the middle of a price spike (high demand) and sell a bunch of them to Buy Order. They can theoretically create as many of any widget as they want from nothing and the ISK would just disappear from EVE altogether. In addition, they could choose as many items as they wanted as often as they wanted.

::Edit: Removed crappy Real World example::

The scary thing is, they could already be doing this and we'd have no idea.

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
Prince Kobol
#94 - 2011-10-30 17:52:45 UTC
PLEX is a RMT's wet dream come true.

It enabled RMT's to buy PLEX with stolen credit card / account details.

This in turns allows them to create disposable accounts with no traceability.

Also when people do pay for isk from 3rd sites, instead of giving isk in game, they now trade PLEX.

Removing PLEX would most likely hurt RMT more then any other action.
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#95 - 2011-11-02 01:10:25 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


Removing PLEX would most likely hurt RMT more then any other action.


No it wouldn't. The reason is that CCP now competes in the RMT market. And legal traders have a big advantage over illegal ones. Among other things, the price you pay for isk is capped by the legal price for a PLEX.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#96 - 2011-11-02 01:29:47 UTC
Right now there are just too many sources for isk creation in the game, and not enough isk sinks. Incursions are a big example of isk being printed right into wallets with no comparable sink. All the extra isk plus the increased demand for shiny PvE ships has driven up certain faction mod prices considerably.

What I'd like to see is a gradual decrease in the payouts of various PVE activities (I don't want to give the impression I'm singling out incursions, because the problem existed before Incursion) and an increase in whatever would make sense. It wouldn't hurt for there to be a regular fee to maintain a corporation, increasing with the size of the corp. if the corp isn't self-sufficient, they should review their business model.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#97 - 2011-11-02 09:32:34 UTC
Dust514 appears to be designed as an isk sink. The COs are just the start. CCP employs economists, I can only asume that these were smart enough to see this coming and have already made suggestions on how to solve it. They have statistical information we as players can only guess about.

Inflation doesn't necessarily mean that Eve is broken. For CCP what is important is the number of players. After Incarna apparantly the number of players went down and CCP was forced to take drastic measures.

Note that PLEX prices play an important role in the pricing of player manufactured items as PLEXes are typically used by players who play a role in the manufactoring chain as manufactures, miners etc. Even lvl 4 mission runners play an important role here as long as they gather loot and salvage.
(Most Incursion players however just collect ISK and LP and leave the loot and salvage to decay. This is one of the points where Incursions are broken: this can be solved by reducing bounties and adding more valuable salvage/loot like t2 salvage.)

Since ISK sinks and faucets work at constant prices this is an important tool to ensure that inflation doesn't run out of control. Over time the Incursion factor will be accounted for and prices will settle at new, although higher levels.

CCP made several PLEX offers aimed at keeping the PLEX prices from rising and thus trying to keep players on board. So far these efforts failed. The question is to what length CCP is willing to go in order to keep the production chain going and keep the player count up. There are two important deadlines for CCP: the Winter expansion and the release of Dust. I expect CCP will go to great length to keep the players on board until then. And they might take unprecedented steps to do so like selling PLEX for ISK to remove ISK from the game and keep PLEX affordable.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#98 - 2011-11-02 13:19:34 UTC
POCOs, as currently designed are not an ISK sink other then:

- The fee paid to the LP store (20M ISK for the BPC)
- Fees paid in broker fees and sales tax
- Fees paid to manufacture items in a station's factory slot

The vast majority of the cost of setting up a POCO is going to be the materials, purchased from other players. The 20M ISK for the BPC is about 20-25% of the estimated market value of a POCO.

(Unless the ISK moves from a player's wallet into an NPC's wallet, it is not an ISK sink. And ISK moving from a NPC wallet into the player's wallet is an ISK faucet.)
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2011-11-02 13:28:31 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
POCOs, as currently designed are not an ISK sink other then:

- The fee paid to the LP store (20M ISK for the BPC)
- Fees paid in broker fees and sales tax
- Fees paid to manufacture items in a station's factory slot

The vast majority of the cost of setting up a POCO is going to be the materials, purchased from other players. The 20M ISK for the BPC is about 20-25% of the estimated market value of a POCO.

(Unless the ISK moves from a player's wallet into an NPC's wallet, it is not an ISK sink. And ISK moving from a NPC wallet into the player's wallet is an ISK faucet.)


There is a subtle effect which you may see.

If pilots increase the amounts of materials they launch into space (where the fee is effectively removed from the game) then in an indirect way POCOs will increase the volume of ISK flowing out through that ISK sink.
Claire Voyant
#100 - 2011-11-02 15:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Claire Voyant
El 1974 wrote:
Since ISK sinks and faucets work at constant prices this is an important tool to ensure that inflation doesn't run out of control. Over time the Incursion factor will be accounted for and prices will settle at new, although higher levels.

It is difficult the separate the wheat from the chaff (the wise from the crazy) in this thread, but this is one point that needs to be reiterated and expanded on.

If you have a game with multiple activities, some of which involve isk sources and some isk sinks, players will choose whatever activity is more worthwhile to them. If there was inflation, the activities with isk sources would become less rewarding and the activities with isk sinks would become more rewarding (or at least cheaper) thus inflation would tend to self-correct.

The problem with Eve is not so much the lack of isk sinks, but the number and variety of them. Skill books and BPOs are one-time purchases. Sales tax and brokers fees are percentages and scale with inflation so they are useless for that purpose. LP store purchases require LP which add just as much (or more) isk in the process of generating them. Station frees are trivial and pretty much just the cost of doing business if you want to make stuff.

Increased PI tariffs and POCO BPOs may be a sign that CCP is headed in the right direction, but I don't know how much of an impact it will have.

I would like to see more isk sinks introduced, even on a small scale just to see that CCP has the right idea, but it goes against the philosophy of having players make everything in the sand box. If we make everything, where does the isk go? In short, we need more ideas for:
Time + Isk + Stuff => Better Stuff

Edit: To be a little less abstract, you take your ship deep into pirate territory. When you find the Boss you give him a pile of money and he trades ships with you which you have to fly out to safety to sell on the market. In short, think outside the box, not all isk sinks have to be in stations.