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One of Eve's real problems-- Devaluation of the isk

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Claire Voyant
#61 - 2011-10-26 17:46:26 UTC
One year is simply too short a time frame. When I was mining I remember getting 120 isk per cubic meter, now it is closer to 100. Megathrons were 100M, now they are 77M. Yes manufacturing margins are smaller, but that is probably a reflection of the glut of BPOs, not rising mineral prices. I don't know which data you are referring to from Block's website, but I doubt that it's going to tell me anything different. And you can't use CCP's CPI because they include PLEX prices as a significant portion so it is worthless.

Meanwhile, many of us remember buying 90-day GTCs for less than what a 30-day PLEX goes for today. Over the long term the value of most eve goods have fallen relative to isk, but isk has fallen even faster compared with real life money. The obvious conclusion is that the value of everything in Eve, goods and isk, is declining.
SencneS
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2011-10-26 20:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: SencneS
Yes, one year is too short, about 2-3 years ago I purchased MRD for I think 0.91 ISK, when they where originally valued Block made them 1.0 ISK each. Buying them at 0.91 ea means minerals where cheap. Today they are worth 1.25-1.26 ISK each.

You can see here the entire year of MRD Value for 2010... 2010 Chart

You can see it was as low as 0.80, and before the end of the year was up to 1.15 p/u.
At the moment Block has them at 1.25-1.26 according to the Exchange.

This isn't irrefutable evidence to say the least, while the formula and set quantity of the mineral basket has not changed, the pricing strategy block uses may have. Which would impact MRD Value. But I can't help but see a trend over a 22 month time frame. Mineral basket is slowly getting more expensive, yet prices of large ticket items like Battleships have slowly declined.

This is why I take Item vs ISK vs PLEX relationships with a grain of salt, what effects each of their values is made up of different variables.
AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2011-10-26 22:04:49 UTC
Actually, PLEX inflates the isk.
Jita trades, daily, something around 2300 PLEXs: which turns in nearly 1t isk traded a day.
The taxes on 1000b isk traded vary wildly in the 2-20b range, depending if it's a direct sell or a brokered sell, and on skills/standings.
We can assume it's somewhere around 8b isk a day, or about 250b isk a month sinked into nothingness.
Now, it isn't that much, but it's still something.
It also actually ties up some ISK, removing it from the pool. The "tied up" isk is probably in the range of half a trillion or so.
In "tied up", i refer to isk in escrow, and to actual isk being pooled from someone to buy PLEXs: That isk won't sink into nothingness, but it's tied up.
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-10-26 22:48:47 UTC
Since PLEX does not create ISK, this means ISK is only exchanged. The more often money changes hands, the more value it has.

PLEX adds values to ISK.

If you're worried about an ISK sink, check out Incursions.
Date Rotsuda
Perkone
Caldari State
#65 - 2011-10-27 10:56:50 UTC
It is not devaluation ( devaluation is active ) , It is inflation.
You need more ISK to buy X item.

Simply law of supply and demand.
More players , more buyers , less sellers => inflation.

Plex just redistribute the cash. Plex is submissive to the law of supply and demand.
Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#66 - 2011-10-27 11:08:12 UTC
And once more it shows: Everything has been said. But not by everyone yet.
Woo Glin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-10-27 13:42:55 UTC
Radelix Cisko wrote:
Woo Glin wrote:
Insurance is an isk sink.


Until the ship goes boom and the platinum coverage was purchased. Not sure of the numbers but I believe it is a sizable percentage above cost of the hull depending on if it was purchased at a competitive price. Now replacing the hull and equipment would be a sink since there are the transaction taxes involved.



lol
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#68 - 2011-10-27 14:42:12 UTC
Insurance introduces new isk into the game. yes, you lose some to the cost, but you get more out of it. The only way it would be a sink, is if your ships lasted more than 36 weeks or so. (cost of ship/cost for platinum *12 weeks) and you ended up paying more for insurance, than for the ship in the first place.

Yes, /minerals/ are destroyed. Yes, modules are destroyed. But those aren't ISK.



Miner mines, then makes a ship with them.
Miner sells ship to PvPer. Miner now has X isk. PvPer has a ship. PVPer insures ship for Y ISK, which costs them Z ISK.
PvPer has their ship destroyed in a glorious battle.
Miner still has X isk. PvPer now has Y isk. No-one has a ship, until the miner gets back to work.

Unless the cumulative Y, is greater than the Z, ISK enters the game through insurance.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Claire Voyant
#69 - 2011-10-27 15:57:44 UTC
SencneS wrote:
Yes, one year is too short, about 2-3 years ago I purchased MRD for I think 0.91 ISK, when they where originally valued Block made them 1.0 ISK each. Buying them at 0.91 ea means minerals where cheap. Today they are worth 1.25-1.26 ISK each.

You can see here the entire year of MRD Value for 2010... 2010 Chart

You can see it was as low as 0.80, and before the end of the year was up to 1.15 p/u.
At the moment Block has them at 1.25-1.26 according to the Exchange.

This isn't irrefutable evidence to say the least, while the formula and set quantity of the mineral basket has not changed, the pricing strategy block uses may have. Which would impact MRD Value. But I can't help but see a trend over a 22 month time frame. Mineral basket is slowly getting more expensive, yet prices of large ticket items like Battleships have slowly declined.

This is why I take Item vs ISK vs PLEX relationships with a grain of salt, what effects each of their values is made up of different variables.

MRD is overweighted in Nocxium, over two times the amount it should be based on capital and battleship material requirements. Compare that graph with the Nocxium price graph and you will see your problem. Any mineral index calculation that is based on Jita sales volumes, or some other subjective method, is useless for long-term trends. You would be better off with the original 4096:1024:256:64:16:4:1 ratio and maybe tweaking it a little after careful study of some of the newer BPOs.
Claire Voyant
#70 - 2011-10-27 16:01:50 UTC
Shirah Yuri wrote:
And once more it shows: Everything has been said. But not by everyone yet.

But no one before you said that. And no one before me had pointed that out. And since I've pointed that out, I think everything has been said.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2011-10-27 16:13:34 UTC
What's an ISK sink?
Claire Voyant
#72 - 2011-10-27 16:39:32 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
What's an ISK sink?

Not sure if serious, but something that removes isk from the game. Skillbooks and BPOs are the two biggest. Station taxes and fees are much smaller I think. There was a dev blog or QEN on the subject.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2011-10-27 16:43:13 UTC
Claire Voyant wrote:
Not sure if serious, but something that removes isk from the game. Skillbooks and BPOs are the two biggest. Station taxes and fees are much smaller I think. There was a dev blog or QEN on the subject.


Aren't those ISK faucets? I thought insurance was an ISK sink?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#74 - 2011-10-27 16:56:31 UTC
The simple rule:

If the ISK moves from your wallet into an NPC wallet, it is an ISK sink.
If the ISK moves from the NPC's wallet into your wallet, it is an ISK faucet.

Broker fees, sales tax, contract fees, LP store items that require ISK, skillbook purchases, station slot fees, office rentals, PI import/export tariffs and the cost of insuring a ship are all sinks.

Rat bounties, mission rewards paid in ISK, insurance payouts are all ISK faucets.
Claire Voyant
#75 - 2011-10-27 17:01:28 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
Claire Voyant wrote:
Not sure if serious, but something that removes isk from the game. Skillbooks and BPOs are the two biggest. Station taxes and fees are much smaller I think. There was a dev blog or QEN on the subject.


Aren't those ISK faucets? I thought insurance was an ISK sink?

Sit on my knee little girl, and I will tell you a story. There are two types of pilots: careful pilots and careless pilots. A good little pilot makes sure he pays his insurance on time and is always careful to stay out of trouble when he goes out to play. If he is lucky, in a few months he will get a letter from the insurance company telling him he has been very good and he has to pay his insurance again. For good little pilots like that, insurance is a sink.

But for bad little pilots, like yourself, when you get into trouble you come crying to your mummy and she gives you some money to buy a new ship. So for bad little pilots like you, insurance is a faucet. The only problem is that there are far more bad pilots than good pilots, so that is why we have too much isk.
Adunh Slavy
#76 - 2011-10-27 19:12:32 UTC
Claire Voyant wrote:
You would be better off with the original 4096:1024:256:64:16:4:1 ratio and maybe tweaking it a little after careful study of some of the newer BPOs.



Yep, I would agree. It is the only non-arbitrary gauge.

BPOs generally correlate with the ore distributions across the four empires, so would caution using them too much to 'tweek' the non-arbitary rule.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Loney
CyberDyne R-D
Artificial Intellagence
#77 - 2011-10-27 20:50:54 UTC
Quote:
What would happen if NPC wallets actually had balances? As in, Concord pays out bounties for ratting, but that reduces their isk account balance. A portion of market taxes flows into Concord's wallet, replenishing it. As their wallet balance changes, bounties paid out either increase or decrease dynamically to compensate.
This is the best thing ive read all week... CCP need to make this happen!

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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=508844
Woo Glin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2011-10-27 20:53:40 UTC
Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost.
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#79 - 2011-10-27 22:30:02 UTC
Woo Glin wrote:
Insurance takes money from players, and doesn't pay out the entire cost to build the ship in either base mineral cost or potential opportunity costs due to lost manufacturing slots, and is thus an isk sink. Saying that it is an isk faucet simply because you get isk ignores the deficit resulting from both the cost of the insurance itself and the gap between payout and real ship cost.


Insurance pays out more ISK than it costs, therefore it is a net increase in the money supply.

The ISK you pay out to another player for ship or minerals remain in the money supply (less modest taxes).

Therefore there is net increase in the money supply.

Faucets and sinks measured are in relation to money supply not your wallet.

If you don't believe posters here that have told you otherwise, then read the QEN (Page 19)
Date Rotsuda
Perkone
Caldari State
#80 - 2011-10-29 11:50:34 UTC
Insurances should be managed by players and not "npc" ?