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Opportunity for Amarr Holders to set record straight
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Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#1 - 2011-10-25 14:43:15 UTC
The Disciples of Ston were recently criticized by a pilot named Ran'shad for rescuing former slaves from certain death in jet cans. Besides some other very ignorant things, he described slaves in the following words, and I quote, " Most slaves are not capable to interact with the galactic society at large, many cannot even make decisions for themselves apart form the very basics - bordering more on the animal survival instinct. To let these people loose into society is tantamount to releasing zoo animals back into the wild, ensuring that they wil be slaughtered by their new environment..."

We have interacted with many Holders and even visited one Holder's facilities. Many holders have told us that their slaves are educated, vocationally trained, live in socially adjusted situations, have positions of leadership and responsibility on ships, planetary, and station environments, are able to communicated well, and are appreciated and respected members of the Holder's community. Is this true or is Ran'shad correct? Which is it?

If I were a Holder, I would be rather angry at Mr. Shad and his characterizations.

This is an opportunity for Amarrians to set the record straight.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.
Graelyn
Aeternus Command Academy
#2 - 2011-10-25 15:00:39 UTC
Morons say things all the time.

Expecting us Holders to care is an amusing prospect.

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#3 - 2011-10-25 15:22:07 UTC
Graelyn wrote:
Morons say things all the time.

Expecting us Holders to care is an amusing prospect.


Well, here's your chance to prove us 'heathen' Minmatar wrong, Graelyn.

Are you holders all talk, as we've long suspected? Or are you 'enlightened' enough to prove that you're more than just elaborate speeches and fancy clothes?

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2011-10-25 15:39:17 UTC
What a sad state of affairs you represent Edaine. As I have previously stated, no one wants to see good resources wasted. For a slaver to jetison their cargo of slaves is wasting a resource and, I my opinion, makes for a poor slaver not worthy of the title. I have never called for you or your fellow disciples to cease rescuing slaves abandoned by these slavers, however I would suggest that your placing them into your own placements and programs is at best theft of someone elses legitimate property.

As the Caldari are want to waste ammunition, those of us who hold slaves would rarely entrust them to such poorly disciplined slavers. I feel truly sad for the families you have broken up by taking perfectly content slaves and forceing them through your re-education centres, feeding them little more than propaganda as you retrain them to fill jobs that YOU deem fit for them and placing them into your own corporations as 'employees'. What choice do you offer them?

For centuries my family has held slaves, and rarely have we been forced to execute or brutalize them. Why you ask? Because they are content, clothed, fed, housed, and employed in meaningful tasks on our vessels, corporate holdings and planetary facilities.

Trying to turn Holders against one another is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to sow dissent amongst a proud and rightgeous people.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance
Ryven Krennel
Hopscotch
#5 - 2011-10-25 15:42:09 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Graelyn wrote:
Morons say things all the time.

Expecting us Holders to care is an amusing prospect.


Well, here's your chance to prove us 'heathen' Minmatar wrong, Graelyn.

Are you holders all talk, as we've long suspected? Or are you 'enlightened' enough to prove that you're more than just elaborate speeches and fancy clothes?


Accusing them of being all talk while asking them to talk is kind of humorous.

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2011-10-25 15:42:32 UTC
My slaves are all kept in accordance with the law and SPCS guidelines.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#7 - 2011-10-25 15:43:49 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
What a sad state of affairs you represent Edaine. As I have previously stated, no one wants to see good resources wasted. For a slaver to jetison their cargo of slaves is wasting a resource and, I my opinion, makes for a poor slaver not worthy of the title. I have never called for you or your fellow disciples to cease rescuing slaves abandoned by these slavers, however I would suggest that your placing them into your own placements and programs is at best theft of someone elses legitimate property.

As the Caldari are want to waste ammunition, those of us who hold slaves would rarely entrust them to such poorly disciplined slavers. I feel truly sad for the families you have broken up by taking perfectly content slaves and forceing them through your re-education centres, feeding them little more than propaganda as you retrain them to fill jobs that YOU deem fit for them and placing them into your own corporations as 'employees'. What choice do you offer them?

For centuries my family has held slaves, and rarely have we been forced to execute or brutalize them. Why you ask? Because they are content, clothed, fed, housed, and employed in meaningful tasks on our vessels, corporate holdings and planetary facilities.

Trying to turn Holders against one another is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to sow dissent amongst a proud and rightgeous people.


One could easily argue that one who dumps their slaves into a jetcan to be eaten by the void has rendered null and void any claim to ownership of those slaves.

This says nothing of the morality, or lack thereof, surrounding that action.

By God, I grow sick of this.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#8 - 2011-10-25 15:46:08 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
however I would suggest that your placing them into your own placements and programs is at best theft of someone elses legitimate property.


Legitimate property?!?

Of all the self-serving, arrogant--

*Astrid cuts off the transmission before she loses her temper again*

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#9 - 2011-10-25 15:49:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucius Vindictus
There is no simple answer, because as in everything else in life there are many shades of gray between black and white. I could ask you if you believe all parents are good at raising children. Most people would agree that this is not the case. But you'd have difficulty getting a consensus on what is good...

Who is without evil himself? Who is to judge what is good? What is Good, and by who's standards? Also, what is good for one child, is that automatically good for all children everywhere?

The relation between slave and master is similar. Like their masters, slaves each have their own backgrounds and personalities. There is no such thing as a "Holders slavery manual" that tells you how to go about enlightening slaves from A-Z. Even the Theology Council won't interfere in these matters and has stated in the past that it leaves it up to the slave owner. Any Amarrian who pretends to know better than the Theology Council, or to have the authority to rule who is right or wrong ventures into dangerous territory.

I won't meddle in the affairs of a fellow slave owner, much less a Holder, any more than I would meddle in my neighbors upbringing of his children. There are systems and checks in place, of course. And for those that break them... well, there are slaves out there that have been Holders themselves.
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-10-25 16:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ran'shad
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
One could easily argue that one who dumps their slaves into a jetcan to be eaten by the void has rendered null and void any claim to ownership of those slaves.

This says nothing of the morality, or lack thereof, surrounding that action.

By God, I grow sick of this.



One could indeed make that arguement. Although God only knows how many mercs, pirates and other unsavory characters are out there calling themselves slavers only to collect the ISK from a young, naive Amarrian trying to expand their holdings. These pseudo-slavers are giving actual slavers a bad reputation. I know very few freighter pilots who would jetison their cargo....it simply is not good for business.

I am sickend to think of how many women and children are jetisoned like waste when they could be safe from harm working in one of my factories....such a shame. Such a travesty. No one should die like that.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#11 - 2011-10-25 17:07:39 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:

If I were a Holder, I would be rather angry at Mr. Shad and his characterizations.

This is an opportunity for Amarrians to set the record straight.


Why would I concern myself by what you say that mr. Shad said to yo directly?

It seems to me that it would be more convenient for you to set mr. Shad straight rather than change your entire opinion on holders based on one man's speech and then ask for clarification publicly.

I hope that was sufficient to set you straight.


Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#12 - 2011-10-25 17:13:34 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:

These pseudo-slavers are giving actual slavers a bad reputation.


That suggests that slavers have a good reputation to begin with.

I will make this very plain: I am nobody's 'property'. I am not 'cargo'. And if the Empire thinks I'll somehow 'wake up' and accept their 'right to ownership', then they're even more naive than I already think they are.

This conversation is over.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2011-10-25 17:29:17 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:

I will make this very plain: I am nobody's 'property'. I am not 'cargo'.


Clearly not, while I value your aggressive nature, it would seem that you are, at best, damaged goods. No competent holder would consider introducing you into their stable populations. It just wouldn't be good for business or the contentment of our existing holdings.

Astrid Stjerna wrote:
This conversation is over.

So why then did you involved yourself in this business in the first place? This goes to prove my point that the marticulation programs and re-education centres are producing nothing more than hyper-aggresive Minmatar 'citizens' , if you can call them that. No self discipline, no idea how to take part in civilized debate. It really is a pity that so much manpower is being spoiled in this fashion.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#14 - 2011-10-25 19:44:30 UTC
A rogue slaver is amarrian, so Amarrians are rogue slavers ?

A square is a rectangle, so a rectangle is a square ? You will hardly prove something with that kind of reasoning, if I may.

Out of curiosity, is lord Ran'shad some relative of Laerise Fierach ? They make extensive use of the same vocabulary.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-10-25 23:20:13 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:


Astrid Stjerna wrote:
This conversation is over.

So why then did you involved yourself in this business in the first place? This goes to prove my point that the marticulation programs and re-education centres are producing nothing more than hyper-aggresive Minmatar 'citizens' , if you can call them that. No self discipline, no idea how to take part in civilized debate. It really is a pity that so much manpower is being spoiled in this fashion.



Riiiiight.. one woman seeking nothing but respect for human rights is somehow an example that an entire system produces ONLY hyper-aggressive people with no self discipline (?) and no ability to debate in a civilized manner.

Makes total sense.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#16 - 2011-10-26 01:18:51 UTC
Have slaves, will travel.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#17 - 2011-10-27 20:33:10 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
My slaves are all kept in accordance with the law and SPCS guidelines.


Mine too, although i still have old habits. . .but I am an old man.