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EVE's Bait & Switch Design Philosophy

First post
Author
Short Stack122
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-07-12 23:03:20 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
The problem with Eve PvE being terrible is that it is also the basis for the economy. You can't say that everyone should move to PvP because if that happened we'd all be quickly battling in our noob ships because PvP doesn't create wealth. Its the mission runners, miners, explorers, etc that create value. The industrialists add value to those products in the form of ships, modules, etc. The fighters then blow it all up. Fighting can protect or acquire the means, but it doesn't itself generate.
PvP creates plenty wealth; it just takes a back bench of creating ISK (but creates some of that too). That particular faucet could certainly be turned up to compensate if the ISK-generating PvE was… ehrm… altered.

I'm assuming that rather than wealth, resources was meant. Though even then, outside of insurance or salvage (both of which seem to generally be balanced as an overall loss of wealth from the game) I don't see much wealth "created" by PvP rather than relocated. How do you figure new wealth is created through PvP?

a simple way would be a highsec merc corp.
Noddy Comet
Lysdexic Agnostics - Thier is no Dog
#22 - 2013-07-12 23:06:37 UTC
Quote:
Why do ALL players feel doing PVE missions are a grind?


I'm sorry, but who the hell told whoever said this they had the absolute right to speak for me and how I feel???

[i]"The biggest problem with quotes on the Internet, is that just because it's on the Internet too many believe them to be real" -[/i]Abraham Lincoln's "Berlin Wall" speech at the 1984 Winter Olympics.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2013-07-12 23:07:22 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you figure new wealth is created through PvP?
Insurance, industry and salvage, most notably. The vast majority of items and materials come from PvP activities, but only about 6-7% of the ISK.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#24 - 2013-07-12 23:07:30 UTC
PvE is boring because no dev touched it in years. Tinkering with AI drone hate and hull size dependent aggro rules was briefly done and even though it caused tears for a moment people figured it out and nothing really changed.

And above all you always have answer "go to wormholes and face sleepers" when you mention aspect of having more challenge in missions.

And beside that you get constant "we talk about it, we have ideas, nothing is done about it" from devs busy with god knows what because only devs working seem to be tiercide guys and occasionally CCP karkur with her UI tweaks.

Funny thing is same answer you get for POSs and anything even remotely moving world shaping forward because apparently splashing our screen with sites is final frontier of software development in 2013.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-07-12 23:07:57 UTC
Short Stack122 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
The problem with Eve PvE being terrible is that it is also the basis for the economy. You can't say that everyone should move to PvP because if that happened we'd all be quickly battling in our noob ships because PvP doesn't create wealth. Its the mission runners, miners, explorers, etc that create value. The industrialists add value to those products in the form of ships, modules, etc. The fighters then blow it all up. Fighting can protect or acquire the means, but it doesn't itself generate.
PvP creates plenty wealth; it just takes a back bench of creating ISK (but creates some of that too). That particular faucet could certainly be turned up to compensate if the ISK-generating PvE was… ehrm… altered.

I'm assuming that rather than wealth, resources was meant. Though even then, outside of insurance or salvage (both of which seem to generally be balanced as an overall loss of wealth from the game) I don't see much wealth "created" by PvP rather than relocated. How do you figure new wealth is created through PvP?

a simple way would be a highsec merc corp.

That's relocation of wealth from a client to you, additionally potential relocation of wealth though intended targets. Neither brings things into the game on the save value as what was lost assuming the mercenary actions end in combat. Also neither generates much new wealth as insurance is designed to make up for a portion of loss, not the entirety.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-07-12 23:11:08 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
A MMO isn't fun when it's not full of people having fun. What that fun is, is what a sandbox game was meant for -- the individual defining his own destiny among the millions...

I've never seen an MMO which allows you to interact with as many players simultaneously as Eve online does.


But you don't interact with them simultaneously. Most are in their stations not saying a word (as few publicly talk in such a paranoid world). It's no different feeling than being in Zangermarsh in WoW before CRZ (no one there but you).

Game needs more humans, not more second/third/fourth/fifth alt accounts.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2013-07-12 23:14:25 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
But you don't interact with them simultaneously. Most are in their stations not saying a word (as few publicly talk in such a paranoid world).
Chances are that you're interacting with them more when they're sitting in a station not saying anything, than when they're flying around in space…
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-07-12 23:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you figure new wealth is created through PvP?
Insurance, industry and salvage, most notably. The vast majority of items and materials come from PvP activities, but only about 6-7% of the ISK.
I wonder if that can be fully considered true in the case of industry, especially some of the resource gathering aspects of it, but I think I get where you are going with that.

Edit: Actually, no, the resource gathering counts more than I gave it credit for initially.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-07-12 23:19:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you figure new wealth is created through PvP?
Insurance, industry and salvage, most notably. The vast majority of items and materials come from PvP activities, but only about 6-7% of the ISK.


Ships, ammo and modules are not amde out of raw isks. Unless you don't count mining as PvE, your view of EVE PVP generating anything is flawed.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#30 - 2013-07-12 23:20:36 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Game needs more humans, not more second/third/fourth/fifth alt accounts.

The game has plenty of humans. Maybe you spend your time in high-sec mission hubs, waiting for brief moments of casual conversation to occur. That's fine but it's unlikely you'll enjoy the game playing that way unless you have some good friends there. You can't always rely on others to bring interaction to you though, sometimes you have to bring interaction to others and force it down their throat.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-07-12 23:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you figure new wealth is created through PvP?
Insurance, industry and salvage, most notably. The vast majority of items and materials come from PvP activities, but only about 6-7% of the ISK.


Ships, ammo and modules are not amde out of raw isks. Unless you don't count mining as PvE, your view of EVE PVP generating anything is flawed.
She(he?) does, and it's not without justification. But like other PvE activities, the PvP aspects become more incidental and are far easier to be less than aware of.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2013-07-12 23:23:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I wonder if that can be fully considered true in the case of industry, especially some of the resource gathering aspects of it, but I think I get where you are going with that.
The manufacturing process is all about adding value and is done in competition with other players.
The resource gathering is all about creating value and is done in competition with other players.

Salvaging gets a special mention since it's PvP (combat) that generates opportunities for PvP (resource gathering) that generates value.

Sure, you could argue that there is a net loss involved in insurance (the assets destroyed are probably worth more than the insurance, unless someone's managed to pull a good old insurance fraud and the loot fairy is particularly benevolent this time), but the insurance itself is an addition no matter what.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-07-12 23:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I wonder if that can be fully considered true in the case of industry, especially some of the resource gathering aspects of it, but I think I get where you are going with that.
The manufacturing process is all about adding value and is done in competition with other players.
The resource gathering is all about creating value and is done in competition with other players.

Salvaging gets a special mention since it's PvP (combat) that generates opportunities for PvP (resource gathering) that generates value.

Sure, you could argue that there is a net loss involved in insurance (the assets destroyed are probably worth more than the insurance, unless someone's managed to pull a good old insurance fraud and the loot fairy is particularly benevolent this time), but the insurance itself is an addition no matter what.

Yeah, I got it, but was too lazy to spell it out, thus the "I think I get where you are going with that." And the added edit as well.
Jimmy Morane
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-07-12 23:27:37 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
A MMO isn't fun when it's not full of people having fun. What that fun is, is what a sandbox game was meant for -- the individual defining his own destiny among the millions...

I've never seen an MMO which allows you to interact with as many players simultaneously as Eve online does.


But you don't interact with them simultaneously. Most are in their stations not saying a word (as few publicly talk in such a paranoid world). It's no different feeling than being in Zangermarsh in WoW before CRZ (no one there but you).

Game needs more humans, not more second/third/fourth/fifth alt accounts.


Just couldn't help yourself could you? P
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#35 - 2013-07-12 23:30:54 UTC
Player interaction is not the same as Player versus Player. Eve is designed for constant player interaction. That's a much more accurate statement than saying that all of the game is about PvP. For one thing, a lot of the game involves Player With Player group activities. And even then, people can avoid the interactions by ignoring them, not caring about them, and pursuing an essentially solo route. I know players who play exactly this way. They love the game, they even join a corp, but they play on their own. They've learned how to avoid interaction that they don't want. I don't have any idea why they want to play this game the way they do, but that's what they do.

Defining PvP so broadly that everything in the game fits into that paradigm is essentially a political activity that some of you guys undertake on the forums.

The fact that most aspects of the game can take on a PVP aspect does not mean they are essentially and wholly PVP.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2013-07-12 23:31:09 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Yeah, I got it, but was too lazy to spell it out, thus the "I think I get where you are going with that." And the added edit as well.

I noticed your edit afterwards, but since people were asking, it's worth being explained in more detail regardless.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-07-12 23:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ban Bindy wrote:
Player interaction is not the same as Player versus Player. Eve is designed for constant player interaction. That's a much more accurate statement than saying that all of the game is about PvP. For one thing, a lot of the game involves Player With Player group activities. And even then, people can avoid the interactions by ignoring them, not caring about them, and pursuing an essentially solo route. I know players who play exactly this way. They love the game, they even join a corp, but they play on their own. They've learned how to avoid interaction that they don't want. I don't have any idea why they want to play this game the way they do, but that's what they do.

Defining PvP so broadly that everything in the game fits into that paradigm is essentially a political activity that some of you guys undertake on the forums.

The fact that most aspects of the game can take on a PVP aspect does not mean they are essentially and wholly PVP.

The statement of player vs player is based in some cases on the mere fact that others doing the same thing you are can affect your returns in that activity. Even when they are not necessarily intending to work against you, they are. By definition that makes the activity PvP, though just in a less direct or confrontational form.
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#38 - 2013-07-12 23:37:08 UTC
Short Stack122 wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…and that's the reason why EVE is still growing


500k players isn't growing, Tippia, that's surviving. Especially when at least 1/3 are but alt accounts.

I would like for EvE to really grow, with millions of humans playing. Not a game with AFK IsBox gatecampers, and just the same in those blob fleets.

A MMO isn't fun when it's not full of people having fun. What that fun is, is what a sandbox game was meant for -- the individual defining his own destiny among the millions...not thousands and they're IsBoxers.

For that, I'll just fire up Deus Ex/Commandos/Morrowind/Oblivion/Silent Hunter/AoE...and for a replacement of EvE...Homeworld II and not bother with the internet at all as I'm playing with but NPCs anyway.Ugh

you sure post A LOT and i mean A LOT for someone who doesnt enjoy the game o.O



He'd be in the right place if he went to forums for the games he mentioned and begged there for mutiplayer versions and lobbyies that looked like cities in WoW in space maybe or Global Agenda space . He'd be able to create little "corps" or "guilds" or whatever they call them in console games.

They could hang out in the Station/lobby/City and show off their loot to each other.

Items really aren't real other than a few token ones.. if 90% of them can't be bought and sold or stolen they're just "unlocks" not virtual items.

He could think he was playing an virtual world and pat himself on the back for that or whatever he's after .

This game isn't like those games but with more people. I hope it doesn't go that way.




Surviving is fine... Dentists thrive and make a good living for 30 years with the same sized practice?

Would you call a Dentist unsuccessful if he made $200 k a year that grew with inflation over the life of his practice?

No.. thats sucess. Growth is gravy. Of course then need to reach for more people and not rest on their laurels or risk not replacing those that naturally drift away. And it's always good to reach for the brass ring.

But a good dentist shouldn't go try to be a podiatrist in his off hours to increase his income.

.

Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-07-12 23:37:28 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
500k players isn't growing, Tippia, that's surviving.


When I started playing this game, it had 4000 subscribers.

I think it's doing just fine mate.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-07-12 23:44:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Shinhwa
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I wonder if that can be fully considered true in the case of industry, especially some of the resource gathering aspects of it, but I think I get where you are going with that.
The manufacturing process is all about adding value and is done in competition with other players.
The resource gathering is all about creating value and is done in competition with other players.

Salvaging gets a special mention since it's PvP (combat) that generates opportunities for PvP (resource gathering) that generates value.

Sure, you could argue that there is a net loss involved in insurance (the assets destroyed are probably worth more than the insurance, unless someone's managed to pull a good old insurance fraud and the loot fairy is particularly benevolent this time), but the insurance itself is an addition no matter what.


I don't understand. It seems like you're just reclassifying all the PvE content as PvP.

Security missions/combat anoms&sigs generate new salvage that wasn't previously in the game and are definately PvE, yes? If I destroy your ship in honorable 1v1 combat and salvage it, those modules came, directly or through some manufacturing process, originally from either a) an NPC that was killed or b) minerals that were mined or c) LP that was farmed from killing NPCs. So still seems like PvE is he source to me.

Resource gathering, e.g. mining, moongoo, data/relic sites are all interactions with the environment. So seems definately PvE to me.

As for insurance, it does add isk to the game. Not sure how to count it since insurance almost never covers the actual loss of isk destroyed.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."