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Fired cause your not ugly enough?

Author
Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#1 - 2013-07-12 15:06:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Q 5
WASN'T THIS AN EPISODE OF THE TWILIGHT ZONE (EYE OF THE BEHOLDER).

Iowa Supreme Court confirms a woman can be fired for being too attractive Updated: Jul 12, 2013 7:27 AM PDT By David Nelson - email

IOWA CITY, Iowa - The Iowa Supreme Court has confirmed its ruling that a dentist did not violate the law when he fired a female assistant for being too attractive.

The all-male court issued a ruling Friday in a sex discrimination lawsuit brought by Melissa Nelson, who was fired by Fort Dodge, Iowa dentist James Knight despite being a stellar employee



http://www.kwqc.com/story/22824929/iowa-supreme-court-confirms-a-woman

I-diots
O-ut
W-alking
A-round
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#2 - 2013-07-12 15:18:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Micheal Dietrich
My question is why? One would assume that the one reason to keep someone around is for the eye candy factor. Or was he jealous because he wanted to be the pretty one at work?

Edit: nm, the guys married. This was more like a case of the significant other being jealous and telling HIM 'either she goes, or I go'

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-07-12 15:44:11 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
My question is why? One would assume that the one reason to keep someone around is for the eye candy factor. Or was he jealous because he wanted to be the pretty one at work?

Edit: nm, the guys married. This was more like a case of the significant other being jealous and telling HIM 'either she goes, or I go'


Exactly. This isn't about her being too pretty, but the personal relationship issues with the employer. It's not exactly unreasonable, that he can let her go. I mean what's the alternative, keeping in mind this is the private sector we're talking about, being unable to do anything about it just because she didn't suck at her job? Yes it's unfair to her, but that's a long way from it being reasonable to make it unlawful.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#4 - 2013-07-12 16:34:30 UTC
Guys who can't keep in in their pants are Full of Win, doncha know, doncha know ??????????

Back to the Petticoats and the Kitchens with them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Roll

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#5 - 2013-07-12 16:45:39 UTC
BTW, Google image of Melissa Nelson, I think she's ok but I wouldn't say you couldn't resist her because of her looks.

I wouldn't throw her out of my bed but I wouldn't bother to beg her to stay.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-07-12 17:49:20 UTC
I could strangle her all night long Shocked

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#7 - 2013-07-12 17:59:11 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
I could strangle her all night long Shocked

Erotic asphyxiation? Kinky Big smile

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#8 - 2013-07-12 18:05:37 UTC
On the plus side at least I know I've got job security in this department.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Kairavi Mrithyakara
#9 - 2013-07-12 18:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kairavi Mrithyakara
This particular case is one of "The guy has no control over his own sexual desires, and therefore the woman must pay the price for it". What's troubling is that this isn't the first such case. Women in the US have been fired before for being dressed in attire made their male (and sometimes female) co-workers uncomfortable when, in truth, said attire hasn't been particularly revealing or provocative.

SlutWalk and Femen and other such movements were sparked off by similar events. Call them political, Third Wave, or provocative, but they all argue the same thing; women shouldn't have to pay for men being unable to control a stiffy. Which isn't all that unreasonable a request.

It is hilarious that these bright sparks some how found a lack of quantifiable evidence when this dentist person and his wife are quoted in an interview basically saying this bloke has the self-control of a leg-humping toy-dog and therefore fired Nelson. Yeah, it isn't unreasonable to try to get rid of the source of tension, but FFS, try jerking off into a sock or something before going "Too much boobs, sorry" and firing her. And how ******* sad is their own sex life to lead to this?

Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Yes it's unfair to her, but that's a long way from it being reasonable to make it unlawful.


Well then, here's hoping that, now that this has gone and happened, bills to prevent these exact circumstances are brought forward.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-07-12 19:20:27 UTC
Firing talented employees for such arbitrary reasons is a good way to brain-drain a company into the dumpster. Let the dummies fire themselves out of business.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#11 - 2013-07-12 21:08:36 UTC
Kairavi Mrithyakara wrote:
This particular case is one of "The guy has no control over his own sexual desires, and therefore the woman must pay the price for it". What's troubling is that this isn't the first such case. Women in the US have been fired before for being dressed in attire made their male (and sometimes female) co-workers uncomfortable when, in truth, said attire hasn't been particularly revealing or provocative.

SlutWalk and Femen and other such movements were sparked off by similar events. Call them political, Third Wave, or provocative, but they all argue the same thing; women shouldn't have to pay for men being unable to control a stiffy. Which isn't all that unreasonable a request.


It would be reasonable if sexual attraction was a reasoned thing. But, in case you wonder, it is not a reasoned thing, rather a quite irrational one. What's funny here is that you blame that man precisely for being rational about his sexual instinct and find a solution which, maybe was wrong for a woman, but was pretty fair to another woman he deemed more important.

But then, probably you're right and there in the United Stupid of America laws will be made so men are punished for being attracted to women co-workers. Then the obvious will happen and some men will cease hiring women, and some women will be hurt rather than just be fired. And then you will call for stronger laws, none of which will eradicate men's obnoxious custom of being men... Blink

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Something Random
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-07-12 21:20:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Something Random
Id just like to point out this is wrong.

Also id like to point out that if your arguing its right... your wrong.

Carry on.

"caught on fire a little bit, just a little."

"Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangs all here!"

I love Science, it gives me a Hadron.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#13 - 2013-07-12 22:29:00 UTC
Something Random wrote:
Id just like to point out this is wrong.

Also id like to point out that if your arguing its right... your wrong.

Carry on.


I don't say it's right. It just is the less wrong in the situation as it is defined. Sometimes a less wrong is the actual best you can get from the only game in town.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Q 5
999 HOLDINGS LLC
#14 - 2013-07-12 22:46:06 UTC
You know, it's called self control.

I can say with a good amount of certainty that he doesn't respect people like he should cause in a work environment he should have no trouble treating people as a professional would.

When you can't maintain that professional distance the work place is disrupted...as in the article.

She should have maintain a distance herself and understand that texting and ANY relationship outside of the work place is absolutely a no no.

I don't blame the wife one bit, both we're guilty of not maintaining that distance, and shown themselves to be of weak character.
Kairavi Mrithyakara
#15 - 2013-07-13 03:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kairavi Mrithyakara
Meh... Damn draft system... Gonna try to redo this post


EDIT: There we go....

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
It would be reasonable if sexual attraction was a reasoned thing. But, in case you wonder, it is not a reasoned thing, rather a quite irrational one. What's funny here is that you blame that man precisely for being rational about his sexual instinct and find a solution which, maybe was wrong for a woman, but was pretty fair to another woman he deemed more important.


You seem to be reacting almost entirely to the last line of the section of my post you quoted, rather than the post as a whole.

If you read my post fully, you'll note that I wasn't condemning the man for having active sexual instincts, but for his total and obvious lack of control over it. Further, I also noted that him and his wife saying the co-worker was fired because he was too attracted to her, and trying to intone that he was attempting to be faithful for his wife, is about as flimsy and stupid an attempt at misdirection as I've ever read; if he's in such terrible danger of being unfaithful to this partner, to whom exclusivity is obviously important, then there's problems far deeper than the employee being "too attractive".

Thirdly, suggesting that he's "been rational about his sexual instinct and found a solution" is insulting on multiple levels. Insulting to women, because what it is saying is "Sorry ladies, our sex-drive prevents us from being able to deal with your sexuality, so you're gonna have to suffer for it"; and insulting to other men, those who work continuously with female co-workers, who might find them attractive on an emotional or carnal level, but don't act on it, don't try to get them fired or demoted or whatever...... To sum it up, they manage to go about their lives without doing anything as fabulously ******* stupid as what this dentist did.



Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
But then, probably you're right and there in the United Stupid of America laws will be made so men are punished for being attracted to women co-workers.


You've completely missed the point of the SultWalk and Femen example. The agenda here isn't to punish men for being attracted to women. It is about about accepting that people might find themselves attracted to women, that said attraction might put them in a compromising position, but then also accepting that the women should not suffer as a result. And if you look up the birth of SlutWalk, for example, it was a case that was remarkably similar to this one, in how the authorities in charge dealt with it.


Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Then the obvious will happen and some men will cease hiring women, and some women will be hurt rather than just be fired. And then you will call for stronger laws, none of which will eradicate men's obnoxious custom of being men... Blink


....Of being men with antiquated senses of entitlement, fossilized sensibilities, and a general disregard for women as thinking and feeling people of equal standing, yeah. Eradicating such men isn't all that big a loss.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#16 - 2013-07-13 06:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Kairavi Mrithyakara wrote:
Meh... Damn draft system... Gonna try to redo this post


EDIT: There we go....

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
It would be reasonable if sexual attraction was a reasoned thing. But, in case you wonder, it is not a reasoned thing, rather a quite irrational one. What's funny here is that you blame that man precisely for being rational about his sexual instinct and find a solution which, maybe was wrong for a woman, but was pretty fair to another woman he deemed more important.


You seem to be reacting almost entirely to the last line of the section of my post you quoted, rather than the post as a whole.

If you read my post fully, you'll note that I wasn't condemning the man for having active sexual instincts, but for his total and obvious lack of control over it. Further, I also noted that him and his wife saying the co-worker was fired because he was too attracted to her, and trying to intone that he was attempting to be faithful for his wife, is about as flimsy and stupid an attempt at misdirection as I've ever read; if he's in such terrible danger of being unfaithful to this partner, to whom exclusivity is obviously important, then there's problems far deeper than the employee being "too attractive".


And provided those problems, the dentist managed them in the most rational, sensible way. There was no agression towards any of the parts, despite a irrational frustration was present, and that's damn rational to do if the problem is of an irrational nature. R*pe, suicide, self-mutilation, murder, all them where ends to that wrong road. Instead, a competent professional was fired (and found a new job) and a competent professional has become the laughing stock of a country and a target to certain politcal cause/bigotry.


My whole point is about how do we command others to deal with their irrational, and how mercyful/understanding we are with their weaknesses even if they lead to stupid and wrongness. As the Law is inflexible once it starts its course, then it must be flexible enough in its inception. FAI, maybe it could provide a compensation for dismissal if it is of certain nature, so the dentist could pay himself out of his trouble.

I don't want to escalate the discussion with a hotter topic, but I think it is worthy to point out that certain irrational behavior exclusive to women is not dealt as harshly as you pretend to deal with this dentist. "Beat it or shoot yourself or be legally punished" is not the most sensible/humane way to deal with irrational issues.

Quote:
You've completely missed the point of the SultWalk and Femen example. The agenda here isn't to punish men for being attracted to women. It is about about accepting that people might find themselves attracted to women, that said attraction might put them in a compromising position, but then also accepting that the women should not suffer as a result. And if you look up the birth of SlutWalk, for example, it was a case that was remarkably similar to this one, in how the authorities in charge dealt with it.


Frankly, don't know the cases. I'm just curious as to what you think the dentist should had done. Just "beat it" by the miraculous force of your wish that he wasn't oh so irrational? Indemnize the employee for firing her for no "acceptable" reason? Or what? Question

Quote:
....Of being men with antiquated senses of entitlement, fossilized sensibilities, and a general disregard for women as thinking and feeling people of equal standing, yeah. Eradicating such men isn't all that big a loss.


Yay, they aren't human beings, right? Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Kairavi Mrithyakara
#17 - 2013-07-13 07:51:06 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

And provided those problems, the dentist managed them in the most rational, sensible way. There was no agression towards any of the parts, despite a irrational frustration was present, and that's damn rational to do if the problem is of an irrational nature. R*pe, suicide, self-mutilation, murder, all them where ends to that wrong road.

Instead, a competent professional was fired (and found a new job) and a competent professional has become the laughing stock of a country and a target to certain politcal cause/bigotry.


Yes, there was no physical aggression. But again, the dentist is hardly the first man to have feelings for a coworker/employee/what have you. Here, someone was fired for something that did not happen, something that she did not initiate or actively participate in with the end goal of a relationship with her employer. This isn't being taken up as an issue because of monetary damages caused or whatever, but because of the grounds of the firing. This isn't about who becomes a laughing stock in what community because of the court's decision, but rather about what kind of practices the court has effectively deemed okay. What's to stop several other people from being fired because their employers have inappropriate thoughts?



Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
My whole point is about how do we command others to deal with their irrational, and how mercyful/understanding we are with their weaknesses even if they lead to stupid and wrongness. As the Law is inflexible once it starts its course, then it must be flexible enough in its inception. FAI, maybe it could provide a compensation for dismissal if it is of certain nature, so the dentist could pay himself out of his trouble.


Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase that?


Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I don't want to escalate the discussion with a hotter topic, but I think it is worthy to point out that certain irrational behavior exclusive to women is not dealt as harshly as you pretend to deal with this dentist. "Beat it or shoot yourself or be legally punished" is not the most sensible/humane way to deal with irrational issues.


Really? Because several recent cases registered against female executives who've allegedly sexually harassed employees have escalated rather quickly in their own right. Further, look at how female teachers proven to have had sexual relationships with students (both under-aged and mature) have been dealt with. Or female superiors in the military accused of sexual harassment have been penalised. And I'm not sure what this "irrational behaviour exclusive to women" that you refer to is, so if you would be so kind as to emphasize, I'll reply accordingly.


Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Frankly, don't know the cases. I'm just curious as to what you think the dentist should had done. Just "beat it" by the miraculous force of your wish that he wasn't oh so irrational? Indemnize the employee for firing her for no "acceptable" reason? Or what? Question


If by "beat it" you mean **** it into a banana peel, then yeah, that's what he should've done (like others do), and then dealt with his feelings. If his attraction to her was more than purely physical, then he should've sought therapy for it. What he chose to do, instead, is repress and withdraw. You find a release else where and deal with it.

And as I've written before, this isn't about the money involved; it is about what practices this court decision has consequently encouraged.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

Yay, they aren't human beings, right? Roll


Mate, if that's what you derived from my statement, then you did not understand what I wrote at all.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-07-13 09:50:05 UTC
Kairavi Mrithyakara wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

And provided those problems, the dentist managed them in the most rational, sensible way. There was no agression towards any of the parts, despite a irrational frustration was present, and that's damn rational to do if the problem is of an irrational nature. R*pe, suicide, self-mutilation, murder, all them where ends to that wrong road.

Instead, a competent professional was fired (and found a new job) and a competent professional has become the laughing stock of a country and a target to certain politcal cause/bigotry.


Yes, there was no physical aggression. But again, the dentist is hardly the first man to have feelings for a coworker/employee/what have you. Here, someone was fired for something that did not happen, something that she did not initiate or actively participate in with the end goal of a relationship with her employer. This isn't being taken up as an issue because of monetary damages caused or whatever, but because of the grounds of the firing. This isn't about who becomes a laughing stock in what community because of the court's decision, but rather about what kind of practices the court has effectively deemed okay. What's to stop several other people from being fired because their employers have inappropriate thoughts?


In public workplaces non of this is really approriate, since all such things are governed by strict laws. In private workplaces I can't see there being a path, that isn't going to cause problems for one party and I think the law should favor the employer in cases where clear evidence of unlawful discrimination can't be shown. Anything else would be open to abuse and be unjust, since it's against the innocent until proven guilty -principle. This will be unfair to the employed in many cases, but that's fine.

Flexibility in firing and hiring is in gneral better for the overall economy then having strict rules governing it. Besides you're not going to come up with a law, that isn't going to be unfair to one party in these kind of situations. You just decide which side you tell to suck it up in unclear cases and that is and should be the accuser in most cases. In some cases the evidence/records can be unilaterally in the control of the accused, so there the burden of proof can reasonably be placed on them.

As to the firing because inappropriate thoughts comment, it propably happens already in some cases. They just aren't going to be stupid enough to give that as the reason for firing, since it does them no good and can cause them damage. I'd suspect the preferred way is to simply not hire you, since it's much easier to not let you in, then it is to get rid of you after. That is besides the point though, since such thing wasn't the case being decided here.

Kairavi Mrithyakara wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Frankly, don't know the cases. I'm just curious as to what you think the dentist should had done. Just "beat it" by the miraculous force of your wish that he wasn't oh so irrational? Indemnize the employee for firing her for no "acceptable" reason? Or what? Question


If by "beat it" you mean **** it into a banana peel, then yeah, that's what he should've done (like others do), and then dealt with his feelings. If his attraction to her was more than purely physical, then he should've sought therapy for it. What he chose to do, instead, is repress and withdraw. You find a release else where and deal with it.

And as I've written before, this isn't about the money involved; it is about what practices this court decision has consequently encouraged.

That's not a way to handle the conflict though. That's wishing the actual conflict away. It's an attractive thing to do, but it's a giant waste of time, since you're just hand waving the actual issue away instead of dealing with it. For example if you discuss how to handle conflicts caused by racism and intolerance the solution isn't to say, that people should just stop being racist and intolerant. That's just basically saying, that if the conflict didn't exist, we wouldn't have the conflict. It's certainly true, but as I said, it's adding nothing of value to the discussion about the actual issue. Point being the situation was what it was and what needed to be decided was, if it was illegal or not in the light of the evidence provided. It wasn't and even if potentially unfair to one party, it seems like a reasonable decision to make.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#19 - 2013-07-13 10:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
So now the idiot dentist can assure his customers they will only be having their teeth cleaned by ugly assistant dental hygienists.

He's the one who is married and admits he utterly lacks self-control towards women.

Why his wife didn't divorce him over that I'll never figure.

It's been such bad publicity (I've been reading about this off and on the past few weeks) the practice is probably going to have to close anyway.

What a creep.


Also: "Nelson worked for James Knight in 1999 and stayed for more than 10 years at the Fort Dodge business." http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/12/us/iowa-irresistible-worker/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I'd like to know what changed after 10 years. Was she uglier when younger ? Sounds like something fishy went on tbh.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#20 - 2013-07-13 13:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Kairavi Mrithyakara wrote:
Yes, there was no physical aggression. But again, the dentist is hardly the first man to have feelings for a coworker/employee/what have you. Here, someone was fired for something that did not happen, something that she did not initiate or actively participate in with the end goal of a relationship with her employer. This isn't being taken up as an issue because of monetary damages caused or whatever, but because of the grounds of the firing. This isn't about who becomes a laughing stock in what community because of the court's decision, but rather about what kind of practices the court has effectively deemed okay. What's to stop several other people from being fired because their employers have inappropriate thoughts?


Apparently, by judging "why" and not "what", you're making a moral judgement there and want the law to enforce it upon others, you want everyone to follow your moral. What you defend is not a consensual "good", but is based on what you think it is offensive and so the law must make everyone share your morality. I fail to see that desirable for a democracy.

Quote:
Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase that?


The law is rational (or pretends to) and when it judges irrational behavior (like being attracted enough so it becomes an issue) it must be flexible to not punish people who didn't cause a harm comparable to the one the law would inflict on them.

Point in case, you say "i'm gonna shoot a kinder" as a joke and you end up in jail, abused and depressed to the point of suicide... that's a case of a terrible law being awfully applied.

Quote:
Really? Because several recent cases registered against female executives who've allegedly sexually harassed employees have escalated rather quickly in their own right. Further, look at how female teachers proven to have had sexual relationships with students (both under-aged and mature) have been dealt with. Or female superiors in the military accused of sexual harassment have been penalised. And I'm not sure what this "irrational behaviour exclusive to women" that you refer to is, so if you would be so kind as to emphasize, I'll reply accordingly.


I was thinking of something else, but won't comment further as it would likely derail the thread and have it closed. It's related to a very hot topic that affects only women.

Quote:
If by "beat it" you mean **** it into a banana peel, then yeah, that's what he should've done (like others do), and then dealt with his feelings. If his attraction to her was more than purely physical, then he should've sought therapy for it. What he chose to do, instead, is repress and withdraw. You find a release else where and deal with it.

And as I've written before, this isn't about the money involved; it is about what practices this court decision has consequently encouraged.


Yes, your moral is good enough for everyone and in case it's not, bring in the Law. "The practices", oh my, how do they dare?

Quote:
Mate, if that's what you derived from my statement, then you did not understand what I wrote at all.


"Eradicate" certain type of men, yes, is both feasible and desirable enough to warrant a prosecution by Law.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

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