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CSM: Making it representative of the playerbase
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Tore Vest
#21 - 2011-10-25 10:00:06 UTC
Just remove CSM.
They are not doing anything good for the average player

No troll.
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-10-25 10:00:13 UTC
Jareck Hunter wrote:
Zyrbalax III wrote:
Name me one RL democracy that elects its government based on the x candidates that get the most votes. For a presidential election this works, but RL democracies use constituencies (of one form or another).
.


Sorry, but thats more a logistical problem, thats get solved by constituencies in RL.
What we see in the CSM is nearly the purest form of democracy, the one with the most votes win.

Then i don't think you have a glue what the CSM is doing. They don't make decisions inside CCP, they can suggest and discuss things, the whole CSM has one (1) voice from many as Stakeholder(?) and they can complain, but in the end CCP says what they will/can do.

If your candidat/ideas don't get enoug votes, than maybe nobody is interrested in them.Attention







The CSM can also give a distorted view of the real situation.


So you don't think the CSM can influence CCP's decision?

If that's the case what do we need the CSM for?
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
#23 - 2011-10-25 10:02:52 UTC
Jareck Hunter wrote:
Zyrbalax III wrote:
Name me one RL democracy that elects its government based on the x candidates that get the most votes. For a presidential election this works, but RL democracies use constituencies (of one form or another).
.


Sorry, but thats more a logistical problem, thats get solved by constituencies in RL.
And i guess yourn american, the democracy where the candidat with less votes still can win....
What we see in the CSM is nearly the purest form of democracy, the one with the most votes wins a place.

Then i don't think you have a glue what the CSM is doing. They don't make decisions inside CCP, they can suggest and discuss things, the whole CSM has one (1) voice from many as Stakeholder(?) and they can complain, but in the end CCP says what they will/can do.

If your candidat/ideas don't get enoug votes, than maybe nobody is interrested in them.Attention


Not an American, based in UK (but similar problems in our system!)

I do understand that CSM don't have power, just a voice; my issue is that voice doesn't represent the whole playerbase to CCP. I know CCP decide what to do regardless of CSM, but at the moment they're taking those decisions without formally hearing the voice of the majority of the playerbase. (Forums being informal.)
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
#24 - 2011-10-25 10:05:01 UTC
Andski wrote:
this is totally the first time this has been brought up and the first time it's shot down because it's a stupid idea!!!!!


Link please? I searched the forums and found the geographic constituencies idea but no others. I don't think the geographic boundaries is feasible - too much work to implement, and not representative enough. Which is why I'm proposing something different.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2011-10-25 10:09:15 UTC
When the CSM was dominated by Empire-based representatives, we didn't make hilariously stupid attempts at threadnaughts to disband or reorganize the CSM. Nullsec organized to get people into the CSM - why can't you?

Oh, right, anything that involves a modicum of effort isn't EVE, right?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2011-10-25 10:10:01 UTC
So despite the csm being mainly living in null what is the problem with what they've put on the table to be fixed?

It's not like the fixes are not positive for high sec or those wishing to go to low or null sec. Maybe for the high Dec mission runner it offers very little unless you fly with hybrids but then again nothing short of a mission revamp will sort out how dull they are.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#27 - 2011-10-25 10:11:00 UTC
Andski wrote:
this is totally the first time this has been brought up and the first time it's shot down because it's a stupid idea!!!!!

Like all lobbyists worldwide, perhaps G**ns should be made to declare their interests before making political statements.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2011-10-25 10:12:20 UTC
A lot of the people in high-sec are the alts of 0.0 people anyway.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
#29 - 2011-10-25 10:12:56 UTC
Andski wrote:
When the CSM was dominated by Empire-based representatives, we didn't make hilariously stupid attempts at threadnaughts to disband or reorganize the CSM. Nullsec organized to get people into the CSM - why can't you?

Oh, right, anything that involves a modicum of effort isn't EVE, right?


I'm not interested in CSM being dominated by any one group, I want it to represent all players and all playstyles in EVE.

I admit this is self-interest, because I want to experience all aspects of EVE and I want all aspects to be as good as they can be. Domination by any group is bad because you end up with one playstyle / area benefitting at the expense of others. Smart players would look for ways to enhance the game for all players not just some.

Glad you find my "threadnaught" hilarious.
Jareck Hunter
UPS Trading and Mining
#30 - 2011-10-25 10:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jareck Hunter
Zyrbalax III wrote:
I do understand that CSM don't have power, just a voice; my issue is that voice doesn't represent the whole playerbase to CCP. I know CCP decide what to do regardless of CSM, but at the moment they're taking those decisions without formally hearing the voice of the majority of the playerbase. (Forums being informal.)


Ever heard of the CSM Crowdsources?

Just a small link i found after 1 min of search:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User_Interface_-_Big_Wins%2C_Fan_Favorites_and_Low_Hanging_Fruit_%28CSM%29

Those lists are respresented to CCP too and everybody can be heard.

CCP t0rfifrans wrote: "We are simply fixing some things that we broke so that we can move forward. Tbh we've had our head somewhat placed in the lowermost segment of the large intestine and are finally coming out for air."
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-10-25 10:15:12 UTC
Andski wrote:
When the CSM was dominated by Empire-based representatives, we didn't make hilariously stupid attempts at threadnaughts to disband or reorganize the CSM. Nullsec organized to get people into the CSM - why can't you?

Oh, right, anything that involves a modicum of effort isn't EVE, right?




Must be easy to get someone elected if their corp and alliances vote for them (especially yours).

But that does not serve the community's interests, that just serves the Goons and your allies interests.

Although some of those interests maybe the same.
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
#32 - 2011-10-25 10:15:36 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
A lot of the people in high-sec are the alts of 0.0 people anyway.


Already responded on this point - 105k null and w-space residents, 600k hisec (per QEN). If there are so many null-alts in hisec then null residents have an interest in hisec representation anyways.
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
#33 - 2011-10-25 10:18:36 UTC
Jareck Hunter wrote:
Zyrbalax III wrote:
I do understand that CSM don't have power, just a voice; my issue is that voice doesn't represent the whole playerbase to CCP. I know CCP decide what to do regardless of CSM, but at the moment they're taking those decisions without formally hearing the voice of the majority of the playerbase. (Forums being informal.)


Ever heard of the CSM Crowdsources?

Just a small link i found after 1 min of search:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User_Interface_-_Big_Wins%2C_Fan_Favorites_and_Low_Hanging_Fruit_%28CSM%29

Those lists are respresented to CCP too and everybody can be heard.


Thanks, yes I have heard of crowdsource and read the results with interest. It is another way CCP use to get opinions from playerbase - as is the forums. If you like it's a sensecheck of what they hear through CSM. This thread is about CSM though, and how to make it representative of the playerbase.
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
#34 - 2011-10-25 10:27:11 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
So despite the csm being mainly living in null what is the problem with what they've put on the table to be fixed?

It's not like the fixes are not positive for high sec or those wishing to go to low or null sec. Maybe for the high Dec mission runner it offers very little unless you fly with hybrids but then again nothing short of a mission revamp will sort out how dull they are.


Well that's a good point, and I think most of what CSM have raised is good for EVE. There are some obvious areas where CSM has fallen down though - for example W-space ABCs.

However, I think it's fair to say that current CSM is mainly interested in stuff that's good for null, which may incidentally be good for the rest of EVE, or may (supporting removal of ABC from w-space) be good for null and bad for other areas. I think a more balanced /representative CSM could have put up a lot of additional / different ideas to benefit other areas of the game as well.

Current CSM looks ot me to be acting in the interests of null, and don't really care if that's good or bad for the rest of EVE.

Maybe next time round with the current CSM system we'll get a carebear / hisec backlash and have an empire-dominated CSM which will focus only on hisec and missions. I would be against that too - better to get a balanced approach and look for ways to make 1 + 1 = 3 instead of 1.8
ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#35 - 2011-10-25 10:38:04 UTC
Zyrbalax III wrote:

Complicated **** that will never work


Would you care to tell us exactly who YOU voted for in the last CSM election ?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-10-25 10:44:47 UTC
Tanya Fox wrote:
Andski wrote:
When the CSM was dominated by Empire-based representatives, we didn't make hilariously stupid attempts at threadnaughts to disband or reorganize the CSM. Nullsec organized to get people into the CSM - why can't you?

Oh, right, anything that involves a modicum of effort isn't EVE, right?




Must be easy to get someone elected if their corp and alliances vote for them (especially yours).

But that does not serve the community's interests, that just serves the Goons and your allies interests.

Although some of those interests maybe the same.


We got all of two (2) candidates into the CSM out of four GSF candidates that ran. Goonswarm isn't the only alliance that coordinated a voting effort.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2011-10-25 10:47:53 UTC
Zyrbalax III wrote:
Assumption: CCP want a CSM that is representative of their player base.

Given that 80% of the EVE population is in Hisec (based on the most recent QEN), the current CSM seems to be heavily weighted in favour of the null-sec community.

It seems to me that the EVE playerbase can be separated into different groups based on different criteria, for example:

Rookies (say < 1 year old)
Vets ( >1 year old)

Hisec residents
Lowsec residents
Null residents
W-space residents

Casual players (play <15 hrs per week)
Hardcore gamers ( >15 hrs per week)
Bots ( >23/7)

PvPers
Mission bears
Industrialists
Miners

etc

Obviously there's a lot of overlap and most players fit into multiple categories. I think it would be a lot of work (and open to abuse) to try and put the playerbase into "CSM constituencies" based on any categorisation.

However there is another way to ensure the different populations get adequate representation on CSM. Set up the CSM so that each seat has a specific role, for example:

Hisec Rep
Lowsec Rep
Null Rep
W-Space Rep
PvP Rep
PvE Rep
Industrialist Rep
Rookie Rep
Bittervet Rep
Casual Player Rep

Etc

When CSM candidates get nominated they choose which role they want to stand for, and set out their manifesto for what they would push for in that role. So for example, the Bittervet Rep might stand on a platform of moar skillz and gimme new toys to play with, while the PvE Rep might say they'll push for new missions or changes to Exploration.

Players then vote for who they want in each role, and can see more clearly as CSM progresses whether (for example) the Hisec rep is doing a good job of representing the concerns of Hisec residents.

They also know who to go to if they have a particular concern. Don't like the POCO setup? Complain through the Industrialist Rep. Removal of high-ends from W-space? Talk to the W-space rep.

This proposal would, I think, make the playerbase feel more "enfranchised", give CSM a bigger voice with CCP, and give CCP better representation of the playerbase.

Comments?



The CSM very accurately represents the players who could be arsed to spend 30 seconds clicking a vote button.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
The Apostle
Doomheim
#38 - 2011-10-25 10:52:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

The CSM very accurately represents the players who could be arsed to spend 30 seconds clicking a vote button.

AND if you actually believe that is true then you shouldn't even be allowed to vote because you have nfi.

The CSM is NOT representative. Period.

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#39 - 2011-10-25 10:54:43 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tanya Fox wrote:
Andski wrote:
When the CSM was dominated by Empire-based representatives, we didn't make hilariously stupid attempts at threadnaughts to disband or reorganize the CSM. Nullsec organized to get people into the CSM - why can't you?

Oh, right, anything that involves a modicum of effort isn't EVE, right?




Must be easy to get someone elected if their corp and alliances vote for them (especially yours).

But that does not serve the community's interests, that just serves the Goons and your allies interests.

Although some of those interests maybe the same.


We got all of two (2) candidates into the CSM out of four GSF candidates that ran. Goonswarm isn't the only alliance that coordinated a voting effort.




I'm not saying it is, it just highlights the flaws of the whole CSM process.


We don't need the CSM, they can never truly represent the whole community anyway.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#40 - 2011-10-25 10:56:49 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Andski wrote:
this is totally the first time this has been brought up and the first time it's shot down because it's a stupid idea!!!!!

Like all lobbyists worldwide, perhaps G**ns should be made to declare their interests before making political statements.



Declare your own.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016