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Advanced Spaceship Command is a badly designed skill
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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-09-02 19:06:47 UTC
Okay if you want to remove "useless skills" why not just remove the Capital ships skill. I mean you don't need a special skill to be able to fly non capital ships. Of course that's not going to happen either.

My point is Eve is full of "useless skills" that are "time sinks".
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#22 - 2013-09-03 05:15:55 UTC
Lets see Capital Ships skill gives 5% bonus to agility to all ships requiring it as a pre-req, and there are ships that require it as pre-req at every level 1 to 5.

Spaceship Command is the one for SubCaps and it gives 2% agility for all ships per level, and there are ships that require it as a pre-req at every level 1 to 5

Advanced Spaceship command is the odd one out, it gives 5% agility for all ships that require it as a pre-req, however the ships that require it as a pre-req all require it at 5.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-09-03 23:04:08 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
Lets see Capital Ships skill gives 5% bonus to agility to all ships requiring it as a pre-req, and there are ships that require it as pre-req at every level 1 to 5.

Spaceship Command is the one for SubCaps and it gives 2% agility for all ships per level, and there are ships that require it as a pre-req at every level 1 to 5

Advanced Spaceship command is the odd one out, it gives 5% agility for all ships that require it as a pre-req, however the ships that require it as a pre-req all require it at 5.


I agree with you that it's silly to make a skill useless unless you have it to 5. I mean why not just make the skill have one level and train it LOL.

As for Capital ships I still think that's the oddball skill if you were to pick one rather than Advanced Spaceship Command. Think about it you need Spaceship Command at various levels to pilot sub capital ships. You don't need "Sub Capital Ships" trained to any level LOL. To me it makes more sense to further the Spaceship Command skill to pilot more advanced ships. Now if my thinking is flawed please explain how.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#24 - 2013-09-04 22:24:44 UTC
I think of it like a progression.

Spaceship Command = Sub Capitals and a Pre-Req for Advanced Spaceship Command

Advanced Spaceship Command = Ships that aren't quite Capital Ships but require their parts to build(The Freighters and Orca fit here, I think the Orca should require ASC 1), it is also a pre-req for Capital Ships

Capital Ships = the final in the progression and required for the capital ships eg dreads, carriers etc


The Capital Ships skill isn't really what is says, its actually Very Advanced Spaceship Command :P
Karma Codolle
Chimera Research and Development
#25 - 2013-09-05 00:55:39 UTC
I never got why they didn't implement it with Tech 2 ships and the likes

t2 frigs/destroyers -> ASC i

t2 cruisers ->ASC ii

t2 BC's -> ASC III

t2 BS's/ t3 cruisers -> ASC IV

Capital class and above -> ASC V
Durabolin VonHobart
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-09-23 09:08:12 UTC
I'm not sure flying freighters is as sexy as ccp seems to think it is. Let the ppls alts with their macro programs fly freighters at lvl one and other caps at lvl 2, then increase the agility gain to 100% and make it a 200x skill, and change base stats accordingly.

The current base stats are silly when you are required to have skills that lower them by 25% and can not lower them further.
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-10-22 14:52:52 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Okay if you want to remove "useless skills" why not just remove the Capital ships skill. I mean you don't need a special skill to be able to fly non capital ships. Of course that's not going to happen either.

My point is Eve is full of "useless skills" that are "time sinks".


Do you mentally include all the basically useless lvl Vs one can train (thinking rigging here mainly, tactical shield reconfiguration, "Weapon X Size Y Specialisation 5" (srsly 2% for a month? not to mention you won't need small and medium IV with Rubicon either but IV is relatively fast to train),and so on and so forth?

Also have to agree with Karma - they'd probably just decrease the base agility but w/e
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-10-22 15:58:51 UTC
At least Advanced Spaceship Command provides some kind of benefit to the ships that it enables. Industrial Construction on the other hand does absolutely nothing past level 3. Nothing. At all.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-10-22 21:17:50 UTC
BraiZure Harloon wrote:
So Dev's have no response as of yet to this thread. Is there any other skill that until you get 5 ranks in it that is totally useless?



Im more concerned with skills that have zero use beyond certain levels. To my knowledge, Jury rigging past 4 is useless, as is Multitasking/Advanced Target Management. Someone who has actually built them can confirm, but I haven't discovered what benefit Outpost Construction gives you beyond 1. The ongoing debate of Tactical Shield Manipulation. Processing skills that are still capped by crappy starbase refine limits.

Also, I agree that this is nothing more than a time sink to make capitals take longer to train, and I absolutely agree that it is necessary.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-10-22 22:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Dorian Wylde wrote:
BraiZure Harloon wrote:
So Dev's have no response as of yet to this thread. Is there any other skill that until you get 5 ranks in it that is totally useless?



Im more concerned with skills that have zero use beyond certain levels. To my knowledge, Jury rigging past 4 is useless, as is Multitasking/Advanced Target Management. Someone who has actually built them can confirm, but I haven't discovered what benefit Outpost Construction gives you beyond 1. The ongoing debate of Tactical Shield Manipulation. Processing skills that are still capped by crappy starbase refine limits.

Also, I agree that this is nothing more than a time sink to make capitals take longer to train, and I absolutely agree that it is necessary.

Jury Rigging V is needed to manufacture T3 ship subsystems. Advanced Target Management levels IV and V are needed if you stick a signal amplifier on a combat recon cruiser or logistics ship. (Although the usefulness of this is questionable.) Outpost Construction past level 1 lets you install the different levels of outpost upgrades with level V being needed for the top level ones. I seem to remember someone doing the math for Tactical Shield Manipulation V long ago and they found that it was actually a small net penalty to your EHP due to the bell curved nature of shield regeneration but in practice fights don't last long enough for it to really matter. The ore processing skills allow you to refine at a 40% base yield outpost perfectly without an implant if you max them.

So that leaves Tactical Shield Manipulation V as questionable and Industrial Construction past level 3 as actually useless.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-10-22 23:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
So that leaves Tactical Shield Manipulation V as questionable and Industrial Construction past level 3 as actually useless.


Battleship Construction 5. No ship requires more than 4 to build, or less than 4 for that matter.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-10-23 02:07:43 UTC
Good point. I hadn't thought of that one.
Raistca
Raistca Corporation
#33 - 2013-12-14 01:12:49 UTC
I think the real smack in the face is when you look at the "Required For" section of ASC. Under level 1 you find to your excitement the various racial freighters. Yay! I could get in one of those pretty quickly then I guess, let's see. *Click to requirements of Charon* Ok, requires ASC 1 and then... Caldari Freighter 1, ok... which requires ASC 5.

WHAT?

When you get a chance to make superficial changes like this, please relocate the racial freighters to ASC 5 where they belong.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-12-14 03:16:56 UTC
Raistca wrote:
I think the real smack in the face is when you look at the "Required For" section of ASC. Under level 1 you find to your excitement the various racial freighters. Yay! I could get in one of those pretty quickly then I guess, let's see. *Click to requirements of Charon* Ok, requires ASC 1 and then... Caldari Freighter 1, ok... which requires ASC 5.

WHAT?

When you get a chance to make superficial changes like this, please relocate the racial freighters to ASC 5 where they belong.


A bit of a necro post...

Looking at it there seems to be some room for improvement. I don't see CCP cutting capital ship training that much though. They already removed BS 5 as a prereq
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