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Financial Fraud, Cartels, Monopoly, API's and you.

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Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2013-07-11 17:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
RAW23 wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
So the homing pigeons i contracted to you isn't good enough anymore


The Homing Pigeons? No ... the code ... it runs too deep.

it runs deeper than that... the term skyclad is actually borrowed from a Jainist sect (the Digambara) and Jainism has some very interesting ideas on ontology

Syādvāda wrote:

syād-asti—in some ways, it is,
syād-nāsti—in some ways, it is not,
syād-asti-nāsti—in some ways, it is, and it is not,
syād-asti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is, and it is indescribable,
syād-nāsti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is not, and it is indescribable,
syād-asti-nāsti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is, it is not, and it is indescribable,
syād-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is indescribable.

.
RAW23
#142 - 2013-07-11 17:54:22 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
So the homing pigeons i contracted to you isn't good enough anymore


The Homing Pigeons? No ... the code ... it runs too deep.

it runs deeper than that... the term skyclad is actually borrowed from a Jainist sect (the Digambara) and Jainism has some very interesting ideas on ontology

Syādvāda wrote:

syād-asti—in some ways, it is,
syād-nāsti—in some ways, it is not,
syād-asti-nāsti—in some ways, it is, and it is not,
syād-asti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is, and it is indescribable,
syād-nāsti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is not, and it is indescribable,
syād-asti-nāsti-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is, it is not, and it is indescribable,
syād-avaktavyaḥ—in some ways, it is indescribable.


Shocked

Calling it now. OP is the third apostle of Eris.

PD wrote:

SRI SYADASTI SYADAVAKTAVYA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADASTI CAVAKTAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVATAVYASCA SYADASTI SYANNASTI SYADAVAKTAVYASCA

Commonly called just SRI SYADASTI. His name is Sanskrit, and means: All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense. He is an Indian Pundit and Prince, born of the Peyotl Tribe, son of Gentle Chief Sun Flower Seed and the squaw Merry Jane. Patron to psychedelic type Discordians.
Patron of the Season of Confusion.


"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#143 - 2013-07-11 18:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhodopsin Pserad
Anyway, back to the original topic...

Financial API data mining is akin to the nature of "insider trading."

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#144 - 2013-07-11 18:20:52 UTC
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Anyway, back to the original topic...

Financial API data mining is called "insider trading."

In the real world, we put people in jail for it. Here, it's just another scam like that guy that bilked you out of a trillion.


Either you misread it on wikipedia or truly have no idea what you talking about from the start.
I bet its the second.

Insider trading and analyzing you api for data, isn't the same thing.

At least you can do is go read why it is prohibited...and then figure out why it shoudlnt be the case in the game.

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#145 - 2013-07-11 18:51:21 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Anyway, back to the original topic...

Financial API data mining is called "insider trading."

In the real world, we put people in jail for it. Here, it's just another scam like that guy that bilked you out of a trillion.


Either you misread it on wikipedia or truly have no idea what you talking about from the start.
I bet its the second.

Insider trading and analyzing you api for data, isn't the same thing.

At least you can do is go read why it is prohibited...and then figure out why it shoudlnt be the case in the game.


I didn't state it should be prohibited, though I did suggest that CCP should remove the option from the API key in the first place. No, it's not "precisely" insider trading, I altered the post. But it is acting on information which is not universally available to the large portion of the market. This, of course, should be allowed in the game. It's nifty for someone to scan the incoming freighter and predict that Crokite is going to take a price dip because they're carrying 800,000 m^3 of it.

I'm here advising people who actually care about whether or not they succeed in the market to not be bamboozled out of their sensitive info. I'm certain that most people are smart enough to avoid this, but, hey, in my estimation, most people would be able to figure out that some guy taking your money and giving you 5% back every month isn't doing anything nice.

You're right, I'm not a stock trader, so I did mischaracterize it to some degree and reviewed it more carefully. Doesn't change the fact that it would be unethical for companies in the world to demand all information about their transactions. I should have some sense of obligation to the people who've bought from me previously as well, though I don't know if that is included in the API as I've not viewed one.

It shouldn't be against the rules in the game, just like it shouldn't be against the rules to show up randomly and gank people in high sec, assuming you're not repeatedly doing it to the same person tracking them everywhere they go and doing it over and over again day in and out if they've not scammed you or otherwise in some way, but even then...

But, it should make you look nasty, like the kind of person who will have your corp underlings turn over everything they own and then skip off with it or something...

Of course I would want to help a corp that I was in advance in the game as much as possible, assuming they're looking for long time players - which would lead me to share such information at some point. But if you don't know who's up to what or who just picks up players, bilks them and then kicks them out of corp, one shouldn't be inclined to dedicate massive amounts of data about your market activity and assets to a group you don't know.

And, yeah, it is kind of insider trading... Like if you knew 9/11 was going to happen in advance and you bought a bunch of oil or something because you knew inflamed tensions with the middle east always causes an increase in the price of crude oil...

Here's a definition I found for "insider information:"

"Definition of 'Insider Information'
A non-public fact regarding the plans or condition of a publicly traded company that could provide a financial advantage when used to buy or sell shares of the company's stock. Insider information is typically gained by someone who is working within or close to a listed company. If a person uses insider information to place trades, he or she can be found guilty of insider trading. Insider trading is illegal when the material information has not been made public and has been traded on. This is because the information gives those having this knowledge an unfair advantage. " - http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/insiderinformation.asp

Though "insider trading" is usually held to apply to company shares, the EU is now applying it to commodities as well:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/14/commodity-regulations-idUSL5N0EO2H320130614

I'm not saying it should be illegal in game to do this, I'm just saying people are doing it and it makes people look untrustworthy as a corp leader. I imagine there's also a lot of corps in game who the idea never occurred to, and, hence, I'm giving them a heads up to help them even their market capabilities.

For myself, assuming the API says who I've contracted with, who has bought things from me and what I've sold them, it seems the appropriate and right thing to do to keep those purchases secret as any good business person would not freely hand out customer data.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#146 - 2013-07-11 19:06:25 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
7 pages of people trying to convince someone too stupid to realise his own stupidity that he is wrong.

My only wish is that I could say threads like this are rare Cry


The only merit is that you somehow scrambled together the mental agility to use an alt to post this thread so if you did ever change your mind on APIs (and someone actually wanted to recruit you) you may be able to join a corp in the future.


He says that only proves we are all in on it!!

And its true, there were a convention, and we all decided to do it together.

I think the OP finally figured us out, nothing is safe anymore...hide your daugthers, hide your api's...


Who's "you all?" There's only those of you who are too dumb to realize financial APIs are useful for spying and market manipulation and those who have been using it for most of the existence of the game. If you think I'm paranoid and you run a corp, you're not thinking like a proper corp head should. In addition to endangering any niches I've found in the market, I risk the safety of my customers by telling you who bought what from me... If someone from the goons bought 500 frigates from me (I'm sure they just make their own to avoid this kind of thing), that wouldn't be the kind of information a corp my want to glean from my API? Does an individual not have an obligation to their customer base's secrecy prior to being a steady member of a corp? I mean, being uncorped should me I'm pretty much neutral except towards people who've gone out of their way to make things difficult for me. When I posted my purchases of minerals earlier, I intentionally cut out the names of those I bought them from - because I don't know who is who and what kind of things you might have planned for dealers in certain commodities.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#147 - 2013-07-11 19:20:08 UTC
You should seperate the two things:
1. Is it possible to learn from you api - yes.
2. Is it worth doing to gain some market advantage - no.

why "no" then?
people have tried to explain to you - its because there are more easy ways to do it. choosing the too hard/ too demanding/ too slow way to do it will be wrong - hence its not cummon at all, like very rare.

regarding "insider information":

1. it is wrong because of moral reasons as you figured it out.
2. thats why it fits perfectly to eve.
3. should a person be "known" for doing it - im not sure. if you awox someone should the whole server know about it? nah.

regarding canceling the whole option from the api:
1. it helps people to learn/analyze their market data.
2. just because you are paranoid doesnt mean we all are.
3. generally, its not good to remove something if someone doing anything wrong with it - unless its an exploit. you wont disable the option to shoot blues in high sec, just cuz you got awoxed do you?

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#148 - 2013-07-11 19:37:52 UTC
To remove financial info from APIs would mean no profit tracking for individuals.

Maybe people dont like finding out whether they are making isk at the same rate as before, but that is not the general impression.

It also means corps could not pay out dividends based on the increase in NAV, or manufacturers could not track profitability over time.

All because you are a bit worried that some corp, who you dont have to join, might look through the last 30 days transactions and steal your info.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#149 - 2013-07-11 20:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
A long time ago, before goons, full API's where a way of tracking spy's, its now invalid both in account hacking and tracking potential alt's to other alliances.

Much has changes. welcome to 2013, some 8 years later.

-EDIT-
The only thing to protect right now is yourself by not providing your market actions to the public, for example some one finding out you make 10-20B isk per month, taking their time to investigate you and your market history to become a competitor, this some one may try to become friends with you or try to infiltrate your industrial corp (basic examples)
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#150 - 2013-07-11 20:19:28 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
To remove financial info from APIs would mean no profit tracking for individuals.

Maybe people dont like finding out whether they are making isk at the same rate as before, but that is not the general impression.

It also means corps could not pay out dividends based on the increase in NAV, or manufacturers could not track profitability over time.

All because you are a bit worried that some corp, who you dont have to join, might look through the last 30 days transactions and steal your info.


I'm not joining them if they demand financials. I probably fly solo better in MMO's anyway for the kind of stuff I end up enjoying the most. I just meant the API keys you hand out to others. Obviously one should have their own transactions recorded.

Maybe noobs like getting screwed on the market because they turn their API's over to corps who may or may not pay off, but I'm not a big fan of it.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-07-11 20:24:10 UTC
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
To remove financial info from APIs would mean no profit tracking for individuals.

Maybe people dont like finding out whether they are making isk at the same rate as before, but that is not the general impression.

It also means corps could not pay out dividends based on the increase in NAV, or manufacturers could not track profitability over time.

All because you are a bit worried that some corp, who you dont have to join, might look through the last 30 days transactions and steal your info.


I'm not joining them if they demand financials. I probably fly solo better in MMO's anyway for the kind of stuff I end up enjoying the most. I just meant the API keys you hand out to others. Obviously one should have their own transactions recorded.

Maybe noobs like getting screwed on the market because they turn their API's over to corps who may or may not pay off, but I'm not a big fan of it.

You've been told how to get around the whole thing, but you don't seem to get it. Create a second account and get on with your EVE life.

This has been mildly entertaining for a slow week at work, but this has now moved into the tedious thread category.

Bokononist

 
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#152 - 2013-07-11 20:25:16 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
A long time ago, before goons, full API's where a way of tracking spy's, its now invalid both in account hacking and tracking potential alt's to other alliances.

Much has changes. welcome to 2013, some 8 years later.

-EDIT-
The only thing to protect right now is yourself by not providing your market actions to the public, for example some one finding out you make 10-20B isk per month, taking their time to investigate you and your market history to become a competitor, this some one may try to become friends with you or try to infiltrate your industrial corp (basic examples)


Well, there's very little way to not be public on the market in some way, unless you're constantly changing alts to sell things.

Anyway, it's a nasty trick.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#153 - 2013-07-11 20:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhodopsin Pserad
Zaxix wrote:
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
To remove financial info from APIs would mean no profit tracking for individuals.

Maybe people dont like finding out whether they are making isk at the same rate as before, but that is not the general impression.

It also means corps could not pay out dividends based on the increase in NAV, or manufacturers could not track profitability over time.

All because you are a bit worried that some corp, who you dont have to join, might look through the last 30 days transactions and steal your info.


I'm not joining them if they demand financials. I probably fly solo better in MMO's anyway for the kind of stuff I end up enjoying the most. I just meant the API keys you hand out to others. Obviously one should have their own transactions recorded.

Maybe noobs like getting screwed on the market because they turn their API's over to corps who may or may not pay off, but I'm not a big fan of it.

You've been told how to get around the whole thing, but you don't seem to get it. Create a second account and get on with your EVE life.

This has been mildly entertaining for a slow week at work, but this has now moved into the tedious thread category.


Why on earth would I create a second account because corps are cheating to exploit the market?

I mean, I've got my sunk costs for what I've put in for the game, but so far it seems like paying money to have lunch at San Quentin.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."
RAW23
#154 - 2013-07-11 20:58:01 UTC
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:

Why on earth would I create a second account because corps are cheating to exploit the market?


Because reality, options and success.

If you allow your actions to be constrained by the (potential) nefarious behaviour of others you become a victim of their actions (or your imagined version of their actions). Being a victim is losing at eve.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#155 - 2013-07-11 21:01:47 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:

Why on earth would I create a second account because corps are cheating to exploit the market?


Because reality, options and success.

If you allow your actions to be constrained by the (potential) nefarious behaviour of others you become a victim of their actions (or your imagined version of their actions). Being a victim is losing at eve.


Funny, I'm not spending any more money on this game at the moment which doesn't mean I'm not going to keep dinking around with my planet colonies because that's fun though not very lucrative.

But, in all seriousness, games where alliance leaders literally try to kill, with full intent, other players through psychological harassment - probably not very long term for me. The ships look cool, but I can open up Blender any time I want and make cool looking ships too...

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#156 - 2013-07-11 21:11:43 UTC
It seems you are playing a different Eve to me

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

RAW23
#157 - 2013-07-11 21:12:41 UTC
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:


But, in all seriousness, games where alliance leaders literally try to kill, with full intent, other players through psychological harassment - probably not very long term for me.


Nor me. That's not what 'literally' happened in eve but if you happen to find such a game be sure to warn me about it.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#158 - 2013-07-11 21:14:32 UTC
Ok so its done. Can i have your stuff?
Can you take all the bipolar, crazy, malested children with you on the way out?

Btw, you have a nasty habit of taking one mans action and blaming an entire community. Brhind all that big talk we had here, it is clear we werent talking to a smart grown up, but with a grown version of an idiotic child :)

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Block Ukx
420 Enterprises.
#159 - 2013-07-11 22:26:30 UTC
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
I have recently been informed that it is standard practice to provide full financial APIs to recruiting corps.

That is true, most corporations in big alliances require full API.

Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:

I begin to see, now, why it is that so many of the tycoons in this game are capable of amassing such great fortunes.

Most of the tycoons I know of amassed their fortune well before API.


Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:

The ability to extort from any prospective member all financial information must be quite the boon to high stakes trading in this game - allowing you to see exatly where there exists any weaknesses and unfilled demands that others have latched upon - and to subsequently eliminate that member's ability to participate in market action.

I highly doubt it. That's like claiming that a good fitting makes you an expert in PVP.

Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:

For myself, it seems, being new to this game, I will be forced to avoid all corp joining which demands API keys of financial information.

I think corps are going to avoid you for the comments you made in this thread.

Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
I am curious if there are any ethical leaders of corps out there who do not require full transaction and wallet info from prospective members.


There are plenty of small corps that don't require API.
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#160 - 2013-07-12 03:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhodopsin Pserad
arabella blood wrote:
Ok so its done. Can i have your stuff?
Can you take all the bipolar, crazy, malested children with you on the way out?

Btw, you have a nasty habit of taking one mans action and blaming an entire community. Brhind all that big talk we had here, it is clear we werent talking to a smart grown up, but with a grown version of an idiotic child :)


Right, the first thing I noticed was that maturity and being a complete sociopath are somehow considered synonymous in Eve. 99% of the world's population would disagree with that, of course, but, then again 99% of the world's population doesn't play Eve. The only other place in civilized societies where that is the case is, of course, prison... and GOP leadership.

This is the game where your attempted murderer isn't regarded taboo to corps, but the person who says it's unfair to data mine APIs is...

All I said was I didn't like the fact that you guys could cheat be demanding personal APIs, you guys threw a tantrum because you gotta have those financial APIs.

Here, I think you guys would like this guy @10:00, he's very mature, doesn't complain about blatant exploits or anything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZVqbAUMM9A

Like I said, it's like paying money to hang out in a supermax.

But I will definitely write the ERSB and parental groups to try to get them to change the rating of this game to M or 17+, because, you're right about one thing, absolutely no children should be playing this game. They may not rate online interactions, but there is that one mission where you have to blow up an entire station of unarmed scientists because the agent didn't get an award.

I mean, after all, Bethesda's games are rated M and they actually have ideologically redeeming characters and I imagine when they release TESO, it'll take them about 20 seconds to toss out people who literally try to kill other players.


I do have to give you guys credit, I studied literature and hard sciences in school. It's extremely hard to push any serious reader to the point of advocating censorship - not even Grand Theft Auto could do that. But you tipped the scale, thanks for the lesson in "maturity."

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."