EVE General Discussion

Therein lies your confusion... We ALL use Null / Lo. It's just not rubbed in your face. But if you investigate the economy, you'll find that ISK and resources flow out of Null & Lo, and finished products flow to Null & Lo. And vice-versa.

Demand for those finished products are driven by the manic comsumption of finished products driven by interminal wars, simmering aggressions, and random blobs blowing each other up. Add to that the constant attrition of barges and gankships, and you've got an interleaved collection of financial, resource, and gameplay ties that inextricably tie Null and Lo to Hi, whether you can see it or not. Whether you like it or not.


You *could* sever that web, and still regenerate some modicum of function. But it would be a very much more-simple, less-rich web of economic and gameplay life. Something akin to Farmville(tm).
I don't play Farmville for a reason - It blows. And EVE, minus Null and Lo, would blow, too.

Is this how discussions tend to go with you guys? A couple legitimate counterpoints and you just completely disappear from the thread?

No "Oh, I guess that's a good point," or "Well, I didn't think of it that way. Maybe I was wrong." Nothing? Just act like this discussion never took place?

…or go for a third option: show that it's not actually a boolean argument, and that presenting it as such is fallacious.

So no, they don't have to do either of those two, making it yet another false dichotomy.

The alliances do their industry outside of null, where it isn't broken.

Maybe you shouldn't have made a bat based on poor logic and kept reading…?

…which was never really in question, you know. In fact, that's the key problem with nullsec industry.

Also, you'll note that the claim you took exception to was that “[a]lliances have their own resources, in all respects” and “[a]lliances do not rely on lone Hisec miners to supply their war efforts” — they don't need nullsec industry to work for any of those to be true.

So no, even though null industry remains awful, the alliances still don't need to rely on highseccers and can still keep it all in-house.

No, it means they're in the third category: nullsec alliances that don't rely on resources outside of the alliance, especially not on lone highsec miners.

I could say the same. You refuse to see the fallacious and incomplete categorisation you set up to drive your argument, when there are far more categories than the false dichotomy you've set up. It has nothing to do with not seeing logic — I accept that if those were the only two options, it would have to be one or the other — but with seeing that those are not the only two options, so the logic in question does not hold.

Wait, what?

You are trying to tell me that null sec players are in high sec and don't rely on high sec miners to get their stuff.

But didn't I just say if you are in high sec mining regardless of your alliance, that you are high sec miner.

And are you telling me that no alliance miners mine by themselves if no one else is on? Oh lordy! I must have the support of my entire alliance because I am afraid to mine solo in high sec!

Look you can't be a nullseccer if you are in high sec mining for your alliance. Sure the end goods go into a null sec alliance, but you then and there are a dirty high sec miner.

Are you even reading my words.

If you are in high sec mining anything at all, it means you are a dirty high sec miner.

It doesn't matter if you belong to a null sec alliance and IN FACT i would guarantee that many of those miners that mine for your alliance are in NPC corps to avoid being war dec'd by people like Space Whores.

No only are you showing illogic, but you also showing hypocrisy.

There are vast stockpiles to burn through.

I'm trying to tell you that your narrow categories are tripping you up.
In particular, I'm trying to tell you that you've set up categories that didn't even exist, which borders on adding a strawman on top of the false dichotomy.

Maybe, but he's not a lone highsec miner when doing so. He's a part of the alliance — one of their in-house resources — and just because he's passing through highsec doesn't mean he's a highseccer. He falls neatly and effortlessly into exactly the alliance category Haze was talking about.

Of course you can. Also, if you're mining for your alliance, you're not a “lone miner” but part of the alliance industry.

So, let's go back to that original statement once more:

“Alliances have their own resources, in all respects.
Trust [Amnesiaa Haze], Alliances do not rely on lone Hisec miners to supply their war efforts.”

Neither of these claims contradict the fact that nullsec industry is crap. All three can easily be true at the same time, since alliances can gather the resources they need and manufacture from them without ever having to rely on lone highsec miners or other out-of-alliance resources. Oh, and that's before we even get into options four, five, …, N, which deal with all the other imaginable combinations of locations and uses of personnel, resources, and activities.

So yes, by offering only two options: either null industry is fine, or alliances must be relying on highsec players, you are setting up a false dichotomy. Before you start talking about logic (or lack thereof), you really need to read up on both formal and informal fallacies because they're a pretty important part of the subject…

Tippia is really good at that. LOL!

Yes, and you're the best.