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hi-sec mining
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2013-07-09 15:56:58 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia wrote:


Quote:
Doesn't matter what I do - because there is nothing from null or low sec I need to play EVE.
Incorrect. What you do matters a lot. So what do you do in the game? You are asking people for information but refuse to give them the basic foundation they need to give it to you. As long as you describe what you do, the only rational answer is that null affects you because that's how the game is designed: it's all interconnected. If you think you've managed to find a way out of that interconnectedness, prove it.


What I do in game does not matter - not for what they are trying to prove. Sorry. And there is nothing, absolutely nothing I need from null or low sec to play EVE - despite you and some others desperate attempt to prove otherwise, which none of you have managed to do...so please - tell me - what do I need from null and low sec to play EVE and how is it that what happens in null and low impacts my game in any way, seriously, if you honestly have an answer - please feel free to give it.


Just like in other games.

What "end-gamers" do in the scheme of things doesn't matter to the rest playing.

Right now I'm hearing my sisters chit chatting in Vent doing their morning WoW dailies. They'd careless about what X guild did in Z raid. They're having fun, and that's what they're paying for.

What I do in EvE that interests me has zip to do with null (and the only thing in null I would have interested in is maybe ABCs, but with other features in the game, even that isn't necessary. Heck, don't even need to mine anytime soon, stored enough mats for months to field enough ships to keep not only me happy, my sisters if they ever want to play EvE -- and not a single null-sec player was needed. And since I don't play the game for ePeens, have no need or interest to throw away perfectly good ships to have "fun", so they'll last [only thing killing my ships is escalations - 2 of 4 ships I lost were due to them. 1 ship only due to PvP, when my main was 3 days old roaming null years ago]. So you're not affecting me, even if you're in high-sec).

Just like in EQII those avatar guilds wanted folks to believe everything revolved around them. The resentments they built over time spills out in public, and I enjoyed my final days in EQII watching karma being delivered.

Same will happen in EvE, as the peanut gallery already publicly mocks the 2 big alliances. If they died tomorrow, the rest of the game will play on. Gamers playing for their own interests, not any power blocks or special interests.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2013-07-09 16:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Sorry, doesn't affect me...I play for the fun, it has no other meaning.
…and you're still affected. Your not caring doesn't change this fact. Also, moving the goal posts does not change the simple fact that everything in the game affects everything else in the game, because that's how the game is designed.

You've tried to change it from “not affected” to “not impacted” to “don't need it” to “have nothing to do with“ to “makes impossible”. The PvP-centric nature of the game, on its own, inherently means that every activity is affected by null in some way or another, so you had to alter the question. All of the things you listed are affected by null in one way or another.

Quote:
Tell me what I need or how what happens in null or low sec affects my EVE game play - at all.
That depends on what you do. So what is it you do in the game?

Ace Uoweme wrote:
Just like in other games.

What "end-gamers" do in the scheme of things doesn't matter to the rest playing.
EVE doesn't work like that because EVE is not like other games. For one, there is no end game. For another, what other players do matter a great deal to everyone else because what they do shapes the world around everyone.
Khira Kitamatsu
#103 - 2013-07-09 16:13:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Sorry, doesn't affect me...I play for the fun, it has no other meaning.
…and you're still affected. Your not caring doesn't change this fact. Also, moving the goal posts does not change the simple fact that everything in the game affects everything else in the game, because that's how the game is designed.

You've tried to change it from “not affected” to “not impacted” to “don't need it” to “have nothing to do with“ to “makes impossible”. The PvP-centric nature of the game, on its own, inherently means that every activity is affected by null in some way or another, so you had to alter the question. All of the things you listed are affected by null in one way or another.

Quote:
Tell me what I need or how what happens in null or low sec affects my EVE game play - at all.
That depends on what you do. So what is it you do in the game?

Ace Uoweme wrote:
Just like in other games.

What "end-gamers" do in the scheme of things doesn't matter to the rest playing.
EVE doesn't work like that because EVE is not like other games. For one, there is no end game. For another, what other players do matter a great deal to everyone else because what they do shapes the world around everyone.


Tippia - I am not going to continue this little circle-jerk with you. I gave you a list of various activities I can do in EVE and those activities are many and none of them that I may choose to do are effected like you seem to believe they are - your attempt to make an argument that defends your belief - is utterly pointless. Until you can tell me how null and low sec has any affect on my game play at all - and that means anything I may have listed previously - you can ask me what I do in game until you are blue in the face. Guess what though - I'll play the game - have fun and make ISK and laugh at all the drama that happens in null and low. I find it quite entertaining. Lol

Ponies!  We need more ponies!
CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
Boatload of Destruction
#104 - 2013-07-09 16:23:13 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Sure EVE is a game, but its like poker. The stakes are real and people get pretty upset when they lose $100 dollar worth of ship.

Especially those who actually paid money to pay for their ships.


I'm not really getting the poker analogy here, that would assume that people paying real money for in-game items have a reasonable expectation to get that money back somehow. They do not.

The fact that you can pay real money for PLEX and convert it to in-game money through the market does not mean that that in-game money has any real-world value. The PLEX item can be said to have value because it can be used towards subscription time, but the ISK gained by selling PLEX on the market doesn't inherently have that same value. The instant you sell that PLEX on the market for ISK, you have lost any real-world value you might have had. This means that any ship you buy with that ISK also does not have any value. So no, said people do not lose $100 worth of ship when it gets blown up, they lose $100 worth of PLEX when they sell it. The $100 itself was lost the instant they confirmed their purchase. They chose to spend real money on PLEX, they chose to exchange that PLEX for ISK, they chose to use that ISK to build that ship, and they chose to undock it and put it in harm's way. They assumed the risk of getting nothing in return for their money. No one is responsible for them losing it but themselves, they don't have anything to be upset about, besides maybe regretting that PLEX purchase in the first place.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#105 - 2013-07-09 16:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - I am not going to continue this little circle-jerk with you.
That's fine by me. As long as you realise that everything you do in EVE is affected by null in one way or another, because that's just how the game works.

At its heart, EVE is very simple: it's a great engine with the market as its motor, with destruction and production fuelling it, and ISK lubricating it. Short of doing absolutely nothing, anything do you din game touches at least two or three of these components, and you're thereby affected by everything everyone else is pouring into the mix.

If you rat, you are producing ISK and you're doing it in competition with other players since rats are a limited resource. Your ISK has its value changed based on what they do; theirs change based on what you do. The loot you pick up is affected in the same way. The competition you're up against will alter what your time is worth using equipment spat out of from this engine. I already explained to you how you are affected and you can keep denying (or not caring about) this as much as you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you are being affected nonetheless. Everything you've listed is affected in the same way. Let's see if you can spot the pattern…

Missions — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Mining — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Industry — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Exploration — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition (just to break out from the emerging norm, exploration is particularly affected by null since a lot of the exploration content would be useless without null providing the other pieces of the puzzle).
Trading — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Scamming — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
PvP — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Collecting — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
DJing — really qualifies as doing nothing, but since you picked EVE radio of all places, you're affected by what happens in null since null events tend to show up on the radio reports.

Quote:
Until you can tell me how null and low sec has any affect on my game play at all
I already did. You failed to dispute it.

Quote:
Guess what though - I'll play the game - have fun and make ISK and laugh at all the drama that happens in null and low.
…and thus be even more affected by it than if you just played the game and made ISK.
Khira Kitamatsu
#106 - 2013-07-09 16:44:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Khira Kitamatsu
Tippia wrote:
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
Tippia - I am not going to continue this little circle-jerk with you.
That's fine by me. As long as you realise that everything you do in EVE is affected by null in one way or another, because that's just how the game works.

At its heart, EVE is very simple: it's a great engine with the market as its motor, with destruction and production fuelling it, and ISK lubricating it. Short of doing absolutely nothing, anything do you din game touches at least two or three of these components, and you're thereby affected by everything everyone else is pouring into the mix.

If you rat, you are producing ISK and you're doing it in competition with other players since rats are a limited resource. Your ISK has its value changed based on what they do; theirs change based on what you do. The loot you pick up is affected in the same way. The competition you're up against will alter what your time is worth using equipment spat out of from this engine. I already explained to you how you are affected and you can keep denying (or not caring about) this as much as you like, but it doesn't change the fact that you are being affected nonetheless. Everything you've listed is affected in the same way. Let's see if you can spot the pattern…

Missions — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Mining — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Industry — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Exploration — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition (just to break out from the emerging norm, exploration is particularly affected by null since a lot of the exploration content would be useless without null providing the other pieces of the puzzle).
Trading — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Scamming — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
PvP — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
Collecting — affected by null through the market and the choice of equipment available to you and your competition.
DJing — really qualifies as doing nothing, but since you picked EVE radio of all places, you're affected by what happens in null since null events tend to show up on the radio reports.

Quote:
Until you can tell me how null and low sec has any affect on my game play at all
I already did. You failed to dispute it.

Quote:
Guess what though - I'll play the game - have fun and make ISK and laugh at all the drama that happens in null and low.
…and thus be even more affected by it than if you just played the game and made ISK.


You just wasted a ton of time and proved absolutely nothing. You and some others think, in some weird way, that what happens in low and null affects mine and others game play - when in fact it doesn't. If null and low sec disappeared from the game this instant - completely wiped from the game - I can still play EVE. I can rat, I can mine, I can trade, I can craft, I can scam, I can PvP, I can do it all and I can do it without null and low sec even being in game. Null and low sec do not generate the content I use to play EVE - the game does that. So in your own twisted little mind you think null and low impacts EVE - when in reality it only effects those that make use of it. The rest of us - we are not. IT HAS ZERO IMPACT ON OUR GAME. ZERO.

But hey...lol...you want to think it affects me - go right on thinking that. Cool

Ponies!  We need more ponies!
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2013-07-09 16:56:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
That's fine by me. As long as you realise that everything you do in EVE is affected by null in one way or another, because that's just how the game works.


Ah, no it doesn't.

Just like you're wrong about twisting words about "end-game", you're wrong that null-sec is even needed for players to play the game.

Zip is needed of null to play EvE. Null has to come to high-sec to even exist. Just look at all the high-sec activity of late for an example.

It's that simple.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#108 - 2013-07-09 17:27:05 UTC
Much of this game is interrelated and dependent on the rest of the game. That's a natural consequence of how the market works. Saying anything else is merely sticking your head in the sand to ignore an obvious conclusion. Ignorance sucks, but self inflicted ignorance sucks even harder.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Disastro
Wrecking Shots
#109 - 2013-07-09 18:23:20 UTC
Broe wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that CCP condone what i call griefing PVE players in hi-sec - minibumping/suicede ganking

does this also extend to other activities like "giveup 10% loot from mission or be suiced ganked?"

?

I mine, I do combat mission all in hi-sec. dont have the isk or skill to rumbel in low-0sec.

Question

As isk can buy PLEX and PLEX have a $ value it is nothing but a nasty form of shakedown or moneyracket or blackmail etc.

Does this not pose a problem?





Unlike other games you have played CCP is very "hands off" in regards to player interactions. This is a pvp game. Sometimes it is a very harsh game for new players. Virtually everything is allowed as long as it does not specifically violate one of the terms of Eula (the rules you are offered to read when you first log in). Griefing, ganking, stealing, scamming and many other activities you might not be allowed to do in other games are perfectly legal in this one.
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2013-07-09 18:48:42 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
It's that simple.


Much of what happens in EVE is driven by the market. And the market is obviously and HUGELY effected by activities in null. So unless you somehow play EVE without ever interacting with the market or interacting with anyone who interacts with the market, then you cannot claim that null does not impact your play.

"It's that simple."
Daimon Kaiera
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#111 - 2013-07-09 19:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Daimon Kaiera
I feel sorry for Khria in that it rats in high-sec.

.... . .-.. .--. / .. / .... .- ...- . / ..-. .- .-.. .-.. . -. / .- -. -.. / .. / -.-. .- -. -. --- - / --. . - / ..- .--. / ... - --- .--. - .... .. ... / ... .. --. -. .- - ..- .-. . / .. -.. . .- / .. ... / -. --- - / ... - --- .-.. . -. / ... - --- .--.
Laserak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-07-09 19:06:07 UTC
null sec makes me angry and confused and i dont wanna hear anything about it
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#113 - 2013-07-09 19:09:09 UTC
Maybe she likes ratting in high sec. Its ok to be different.

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Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-07-09 19:21:11 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Look, I know of one person who is building super's in lowsec for nullsec.


You should hope that CCP never finds out that he does. Building supers in lowsec looks very much like an exploit.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#115 - 2013-07-09 19:24:19 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
You just wasted a ton of time and proved absolutely nothing.
Copy-pasting takes very little time, and is quite effective in demonstrating how the same rules apply to different activities.

Quote:
and some others think, in some weird way, that what happens in low and null affects mine and others game play - when in fact it doesn't.
…except in the ways described, none of which you've been able to dispute.

If null and low sec disappeared from the game this instant, the game would come to a very sudden and immediate halt as everything in it ceased to either function or have any meaning. Neither ISK nor items would serve any purpose since the market would be gone, and most industry would be rendered impossible due to lack of resources. You could still play EVE in the sense that, yes, the servers would still run. You could not play it in the sense that the game keeps functioning.

You have no reason to rat or mine or craft; you'd have no-one to scam and nothing to scam them over, with, or for; you'd have nothing to PvP with, over, or against.

Quote:
Null and low sec do not generate the content I use to play EVE - the game does that.
Incorrect. Other players do that, and they need the tools and resources of null and low to do so. If they didn't have them, they'd leave, and there would be no more content because the game doesn't provide it for you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#116 - 2013-07-09 19:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Ah, no it doesn't.
Yes it does, and that's why your insistence on using WoW as a point of reference always fails: because you think that this game works in any way like WoW does.

EVE is completely and utterly interconnected in every way. What other people do affects you on both a macro and a micro scale. Null affects highsec by pouring certain materials (and ISK) in, taking tons of materials (and ISK) out, and, above all, destroying fucktons of stuff. This generates a demand for all kinds of products and services that keeps everyone from miners to manufacturers to mission-runners is business (and also provides many of the tools and materials that said miners, manufacturers, and mission runners need to keep going). It gives your ISK and goods meaning and value and provides you with stuff to buy with that ISK, as well as reasons to produce both ISK and goods.

It's an integrated market. When you push at one end, it bulges at the other. If you pull at one corner, the others will flex and bend.

Quote:
Just like you're wrong about twisting words about "end-game"'
No words are being twisted. There is no end-game in EVE. There are just player goals that they may or may not achieve.

Quote:
you're wrong that null-sec is even needed for players to play the game.
Would you play the game if you had no equipment and if there was no point in having ISK? No null = no large-scale destruction = no constant demand = no reason to supply = no goodies for you. So null is as integral to being able to play the game as every other part of it.

It's that simple.
Khira Kitamatsu
#117 - 2013-07-09 19:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Khira Kitamatsu
Verunae Caseti wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
It's that simple.


Much of what happens in EVE is driven by the market. And the market is obviously and HUGELY effected by activities in null. So unless you somehow play EVE without ever interacting with the market or interacting with anyone who interacts with the market, then you cannot claim that null does not impact your play.

"It's that simple."


No, it really is that simple, and you and some others think the game revolves around them when it doesn't. I'll repeat this one more time.

If null sec and low sec were completely removed from the game - that means gone - doesn't exist. OK we clear on that? Null and low sec are gone. Good. Guess what - the game of EVE goes on as if nothing ever happened. They are not needed to play EVE.

The only people that seem to believe the null sec and low sec matters are those that use it. Rightly so, because they play there...but the reality is...if it disappeared from the game - it would have zero impact on how the game is played by many people. We derive our game play from EVE and it is generated by EVE and can be done in high-sec and we need nothing from null or low sec to do it.



IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE.


If you think otherwise...then answer me this one question?

Can I play EVE without NULL and LOW SEC being in the game? If you say no...then you are just being an idiot and arguing for the sake of arguing. Which brings this to a close. I can play EVE and need nothing from low and null sec to do so. END OF STORY.

Ponies!  We need more ponies!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#118 - 2013-07-09 19:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
I'll repeat this one more time.
Repeating false statements don't make them true.

Quote:
If null sec and low sec were completely removed from the game - that means gone - doesn't exist. OK we clear on that? Null and low sec are gone. Good. Guess what - the game of EVE
…dies pretty much instantly as the destruction-production engine and market motor grinds to a very sudden halt.

The only way for null to stop affecting your game is if you manage to completely disconnect yourself from the game economy, and if you think you can do that, you've completely misunderstood pretty much every last aspect of the game.

It's actually a rather complex beast, but this part of it couldn't be simpler.
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2013-07-09 19:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Verunae Caseti
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:

If null sec and low sec were completely removed from the game - that means gone - doesn't exist. OK we clear on that? Null and low sec are gone. Good. Guess what - the game of EVE goes on as if nothing ever happened. They are not needed to play EVE.


Saying they are "not needed" and saying they have no effect on you are two completely different claims. One being true while completely irrelevant, and the other being patently false.

If null and low were removed from the game entirely, the game would go on, but the market would adjust to their absence and the fact that far fewer ships/mod/turrets/rigs/implants would be being removed from the game. Their value would change dramatically and irrevocably overnight and that would absolutely change the game that you play.

Null/low drive the market, and the market drives EVE. It's really pretty clear.

Quote:
The only people that seem to believe the null sec and low sec matters are those that use it.


Nope, never been there personally. I'm just not narrow-minded.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-07-09 19:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
I don't mean to rain on everyone's parade, but there is a profession that you can have that completely separates you from null and low.

NPC courier missions in high sec.

All you need is the starting indy that the starter missions gives you and you can be grinding away isk and LP without ever dealing with another player in the game.

I wouldn't recommend doing it, but I have done it to grind standings so its a feasible way to play the game.

I'm sure someone out there enjoys it.

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