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Skill Discussions

 
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EVE's greatest strength - is also it's greatest weakness. The SP grind for new players.

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Sacu Shi
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#241 - 2013-12-13 11:27:06 UTC
T1, Meta 4 items are sometimes better than the T2 variants for various reasons (better fitting etc).

T1 modules can be gotten into just by skilling a skillbook.

I have 15 mill sp, I can and have flown multi billion isk battleships. Now im flying a battlecruiser and enjoying it much more (T1, btw). I can fly T3, but not effectively.

I think T1 stuff, ships and modules are much more fun, cos they cost less so much easier to get over the fear of dying...and much easier to replace when they do go booooom.

Plan for a particular ship / fit. UseEVEmon to plan the skills and queue them up. while they are training, try other stuff...mining, ratting, null space, W-space, scamming, PI, etc etc.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#242 - 2013-12-13 13:21:56 UTC
Sweeet wrote:

And yes, Tech II weapons, not Tech I. Tech II weapons with Tech II Ammo and the appropriate skills can have as much as a 50% advantage over Tech I, and that is not something to be taken lightly (I googled many forum posts about the difference between Tech I & Tech II with appropriate skills levelled, up to 50% was the general consensus). The advantage may not always be as much as 50% I know, but this brings me to my second point.


Some of the hours I spent years ago in Period Basis with a poorly fit Dominix (T1 megapulses), losing one to a Blood Pope (the horror!), were some of the most fun times I've had in Eve.

Can I have your stuff?
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#243 - 2013-12-15 20:02:46 UTC
I have 140m sp and get blown up in empire by 6 month olds anytime I don't have guns like mining or going to retrieve a ship I. A shuttle and instantly getting both shuttle and pod insta'd, or an awox.
Now I had a friend that used to watch me play with my guidance in 4 months he was soloing lvl 4s now he kills things faster than my nerf poor nighthawk I once loved but he's loving the game at a year in

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#244 - 2013-12-15 20:45:49 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Look, literally everyone here has told you the same thing: Youre going too fast
What youre going is like letting a player fight the last boss in an RPG game on his first time playing. it's just not good for anyone involved.
unlike RPGs (and other games) eve doesnt have set, predefined boundaries so if new player want to do things out of order they can, but the cost is that they'll be bad at it and wont learn how to play the game properly first.

bottom line: EVE is NOT meant to be easy. deal with it or ship out.


PS: just as a note, '10 years of sp' is completely meaningless. at any one time in game, youre probably applying 6 months worth of SP training at a time, MAYBE a years worth for some roles.
if you have 10 years of SP, all it means is you can do more things, NOT that you can do something 20x as well as someone with 6 months of SP.
if youre training is focused, after 6months, certainly after a year, youre on par with everyone else for whatever role you've trained in.


I couldn't have said it better myself.
Boomhaur
#245 - 2013-12-15 21:48:14 UTC
Talk about rushing into ships. I just more recently trained up for BS's and that was at over 40mil SP on a 2006 toon (I've been playing off and on for past several years). But I spec for sub-bs ships and finally flew my first BS this year before completing all my sub-bs specilization when they did the teiricide.

Want to know the funny thing, the Rifter is still my #1 favorite ship out of EVERYTHING I can fly. And last I checked I can fly almost every single sub-bs ship. Some of them I am highly specialized in others I am good enough to just jump in the hull for now.

When I started I went from Rifter/Breacher, Kestal, Caracal, Drake (newly introduced back than), Nighthawk, Tengu, and more recently Typhoon Fleet Issue. This is for the mission running ships which I highly speced myself back when I ran missions. I flew the Drake for a very long time, and the NIghthawk for a very long time as well before adopting the Tengu which everyone swore up and down was a superior ship. Truth be told it was easier to fly, but with my skills the mission completion times were about the same. I am convinced most people just didn't have the skills to fly one properly to get the same results (this was pre-HML changes).

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.
Josephine Risalo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#246 - 2013-12-16 05:20:14 UTC
Ok I've enjoyed the conversation so far but I have to invest my two cents to the OP also. I to am very much the noob (this is a alt) and like you I have played , left and came back a couple of times now. The reason was (as you) feeling like I would never be able to enjoy the game as there would always be demi god status characters awaiting me in the evolution of the games parameters for me. The result was (is) a main with half ass and inadequate training in a multitude of potential ISK making trades and the trained ability to fly the coveted BS (choir sings AAAAHHH). I took my beloved abbadon into low and very promptly took it right up the pooper (choir sings UP THE POOOPER!!) Reason is I had the "skill" points but no skill in the game mechanics. ( I say it in the past sense. Lol. Still don't.) While the proposals for leveling the playing field have some merits and and validity of the disportionate capabilities I have to agree with the "vets" in that there is SO MUCH to the game and so many paths that there really is no reason to rush and I would advise to do as I'm doing......slow down ......enjoy the game....and start small with building the basics. Even though I can afford and am trained to fly a BC or BS if I want to I would suck at it cause the ship itself (and the pilot...waves) are so inadequate in the total readiness that why bother.
Like you (if I'm reading you correctly ) I'm used to being the best of trying dam hard. When I played WOW I ended up ranking top 400 in the world as a tank but in EVE I lost a BC the other day to a executioner in low sec and it wasn't pretty. Lol. The flip side to the crush of my ego (jk) was the player taught me what I was doing wrong and how I could do better. Slow down and enjoy the game .




I HAVE YET TO SEE WHITER TEETH OR MORE SEX APPEAL COME FROM A VICTORY IN GAME. ITSA GAME
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#247 - 2013-12-16 15:18:53 UTC
Josephine Risalo wrote:
Ok I've enjoyed the conversation so far but I have to invest my two cents to the OP also.

Even though he hasn't been seen on the forums in 5 months?

If y'all want to keep beating this dead horse, at least respond to the people who are actually still engaged.
Soutiken Jin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-12-18 21:04:16 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:

EDIT: To answer the reply just above this one. If you are paying $30 just to train T2 fitted battleships, you obviously aren't playing the game. I don't pay my subscription JUST for skill points. If I wanted to do that, I would buy PLEX instead and buy a character. Maybe that's more up your alley.


I agree with you on the above, and i did make mention of this in my post. Unfortunately at the moment, I do pay just for skill points. I work so much and have such a busy social life, that there just isn't a place for eve at the moment. Now, i must sound pretty stupid hey.. pay for a game that i don't play lol. It is stupid, but i'll make a bet im not the only one. Not by a long shot. I just want a decent character that can fly a whole heap of ships and participate in some well paying / more interesting pve. I am well aware that the only real fun in eve is in PVP, yet i just don't feel ready to do it yet, if ever.

My question is, why do skill times have to be so long? Why is Gallente BS V 27 days? Why not half that?

That whole (you wont know how to fly it = expensive wreck argument is bull. For pvp this is true, for PVE, i reckon i could train a reasonably intelligent friend to do level 4 missions in a half capable ship within a few hours. Its not hard.

CCP know that there is a percentage of the population patient enough who also derive great pleasure from the advancement of their space avatar. By putting in the hard yards (time) in building your character, there is a feeling of both accomplishment and power that no other MMO can offer. I remember in Ultima Online in the beginning days, i was really impressed to see a 5XGM, it just really took a lot of effort and was fairly rare. This dedication and attachment to ones character also makes a person more likely to keep subscribing to eve year after year. Jackpot CCP, regular cashflow.

Skill training times will never change, because the vets would ***** like no ones business, probably rage quit and destroy CCP in the process. They are the core players CCP must be loyal to. As a bit of a mind exercise, imagine if skill training didn't exist at all and people could immediately fly everything? A lot of people would get bored of trying ships, find one they liked and PVP with it and love the space battles. A (in my guesstimate) far larger proportion of players would not get the satisfaction from attaining new skills, would tire of pve very quick, try pvp, not like it and quit. Eve might burn a lot brighter for a little while as more people giving pvp a go (level playing field), but it would ultimately fizzle and die very fast.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#249 - 2013-12-19 10:17:08 UTC
Soutiken Jin wrote:
I just want a decent character that can fly a whole heap of ships and participate in some well paying / more interesting pve. I am well aware that the only real fun in eve is in PVP, yet i just don't feel ready to do it yet, if ever.

Join Red vs Blue and you will never want to fly anything bigger than a cruiser again (nor do PVE unless you need the ISK).

How to win EVE
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#250 - 2013-12-19 18:32:07 UTC
Sweeet wrote:
I’m actually going on 3 months now, but here’s the catch – I’ve barely played at all these past 3 months, why? Because the sheer volume of SP needed to put oneself in a Battleship with Tech II weapons is overwhelming to say the least.


Sounds like a personal problem to me, why have you chosen this as your metric of success?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Raklar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2013-12-27 01:08:06 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Let's talk about progression.

World of Warcraft:

Level 1: I want to be a hero! I'm going to do all the raids and pvp.
Noob Area Guard: Cool, you'll get right on that but until then I need you to kill 6 boars.

Eve:

Day 1: I'm going to scam, run missions, and do huge fleet battles and get a Titan and do wormhole space!
Aura: Cool sounds like you'll have a blast in Eve, now please inject the Armor Repair Systems skillbook and add it to your training queue.

Every game has a similar notion that you start off fresh and through time and/or effort you become something more. The point is that if you give people too much it's like using game genie. While it is fun at first to have all the codes the game quickly becomes pointless and loses retention.



Good point, but logged in or not a player progresses the same in eve. While in standard mmo a player can accelerated their progression rate by spending more time in game.

It is something I wish they would change, actively playing a game should reward faster progression than not. And it would benefit vets and new players the same.


Clem Fandango
Doomheim
#252 - 2013-12-27 08:36:29 UTC
Raklar wrote:
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Let's talk about progression.

World of Warcraft:

Level 1: I want to be a hero! I'm going to do all the raids and pvp.
Noob Area Guard: Cool, you'll get right on that but until then I need you to kill 6 boars.

Eve:

Day 1: I'm going to scam, run missions, and do huge fleet battles and get a Titan and do wormhole space!
Aura: Cool sounds like you'll have a blast in Eve, now please inject the Armor Repair Systems skillbook and add it to your training queue.

Every game has a similar notion that you start off fresh and through time and/or effort you become something more. The point is that if you give people too much it's like using game genie. While it is fun at first to have all the codes the game quickly becomes pointless and loses retention.



Good point, but logged in or not a player progresses the same in eve. While in standard mmo a player can accelerated their progression rate by spending more time in game.

It is something I wish they would change, actively playing a game should reward faster progression than not. And it would benefit vets and new players the same.


I quite like the fact people don't feel obliged to play this game 24/7 to "eek" out the skills faster. I think it probably contributes to the fact EvE is an MMO that you are less likely to "lose real life" over. Often times incentives to play for longer periods are detrimental to peoples health.

One thing I find annoying is that it's of more benefit (generally) to stay in one's implant clone for longer periods of time and reap the reward of those +5's that you might not have in your "fun" clone.
Ras Al-Gul
My My Miya
#253 - 2014-01-02 03:21:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ras Al-Gul
Flat out, you are wrong about the SP system being a negative factor for new players, here's why:

-There is a cap of SPs in any given ship type/weapon system/trade etc. What this means is that should you want to, you can specialize relatively quickly if you are so driven.

-Tier 1 modules/equipment/ships are even quicker and provide a "taste" of that specific system without the relatively deeper investment of tech 2

-You should understand that there is no comparison between t1 and t2, trying to reduce the gap or make it easier to get to t2 cheepens it for those who invested the SP/time themselves. There is nothing wrong with taking a long time to get to a point you feel is ideal, I think eve is one of the only MMOs that actually still has a time investment for character advancement(not currency) and not allowing people with all day free to grind lvls 8+ hours a day to reach their perceived "end game".
Eve is a game that says, "you got time to play? Make isk or PvP while you train for that new ship or module, stop whining you little brat, earn your SP!"
Tenga Fera
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2014-01-02 23:08:47 UTC
Day-z is popular for it's frustrating game design. Although Eve wise, you genuinly do have an upper hand in most cases based on your sp level, but there is usually some degree of leeway.
Rand Allesteir
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2014-01-04 16:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rand Allesteir
"You're useless without a T2 ship". Useless for what? I'm enjoying the game just fine, and from our brushes with brave newbies, they seem to be having tons of fun as well, all using less than a month's worth of SP. Of course, you have to forget about all this space bushido stuff and remember that EVE is an MMO, and 1v1 "fair fights" are not the only way to enjoy it. Having low SP hasn't stopped me, or my corp mates, from flying frigates/destroyers/cruisers, clashing into other newbie fleets, struggling against vets, and having a blast all throughout. It also hasn't stopped me from doing some casual mining, exploring lowsec, and even dabbling into some trade.

Quote:

I just want a decent character that can fly a whole heap of ships and participate in some well paying / more interesting pve. I am well aware that the only real fun in eve is in PVP, yet i just don't feel ready to do it yet, if ever.


Why do you want to get a "decent character" to "participate in...pve" if "the only real fun is in PVP"?

If there is fun in PvE, but only at high SP, then perhaps that's something CCP could look into changing(Although I disagree, there's plenty of stuff you can do at low sp, exploration, station trading, PI, mining).

EVE has a lot of content, but if you only enjoy a tiny sliver of it, it probably seems boring.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#256 - 2014-01-05 10:26:49 UTC
Raklar wrote:
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Let's talk about progression.

World of Warcraft:

Level 1: I want to be a hero! I'm going to do all the raids and pvp.
Noob Area Guard: Cool, you'll get right on that but until then I need you to kill 6 boars.

Eve:

Day 1: I'm going to scam, run missions, and do huge fleet battles and get a Titan and do wormhole space!
Aura: Cool sounds like you'll have a blast in Eve, now please inject the Armor Repair Systems skillbook and add it to your training queue.

Every game has a similar notion that you start off fresh and through time and/or effort you become something more. The point is that if you give people too much it's like using game genie. While it is fun at first to have all the codes the game quickly becomes pointless and loses retention.



Good point, but logged in or not a player progresses the same in eve. While in standard mmo a player can accelerated their progression rate by spending more time in game.

It is something I wish they would change, actively playing a game should reward faster progression than not. And it would benefit vets and new players the same.




Except that in other MMOs spending time in game is the only way to progress. In EvE, it's not. That fact is a major selling point of the game to be honest.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2014-01-05 11:38:38 UTC
My 2p worth:

I find the SP learning balance in game to be just fine. My choice has been to focus on business activities first to generate isk, but by training multiple skills to lvl III relatively rapidly I could run most missions too and make a contribution in fleet ops. With a bit of focused training I could run any lvl II mission easily in an algos (still my favourite ship). I have the skills for a BS but have simply not bothered flying it yet.

The only change I can think of that *might* be worth considering is some kind of increase in SP on skills for actually using them, i.e. you can learn a skill just fine from theory but you learn much more from putting it into practice. Then a player could choose to be learning the theory of PI skills but still be increasing combat skills by using them in missions/fleet ops etc.

Naturally this would need balancing but would provide a nice boost to those actively using skills, meaning you can develop into a chosen career faster than say a charactar bazaar holding character who in game terms is purely theory learning.
Alexei Stryker
Council of Stellar Erections
#258 - 2014-01-06 17:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexei Stryker
Edit: ... What I wrote was not posted... just the quote... Shocked

Im not gonna write the whole thing again... Just a short summary...

I made same mistakes... wanted a rokh... lost rokh to a cruiser... wondered why I keep missing the cruiser... because of lack of konwledge in game mechanics....
Because of this mistake I had spent training time in useless (for me) Large Railgun Spec.

And... T2 doesnt always mean better than T1... T1 Named Stuff are sometimes a lot better than T2 stuff.
Alexei Stryker
Council of Stellar Erections
#259 - 2014-01-06 17:58:19 UTC
Edit: ... What I wrote was not posted... just the quote... Shocked

Im not gonna write the whole thing again... Just a short summary...

I made same mistakes... wanted a rokh... lost rokh to a cruiser... wondered why I keep missing the cruiser... because of lack of konwledge in game mechanics....
Because of this mistake I had spent training time in useless (for me) Large Railgun Spec.

And... T2 doesnt always mean better than T1... T1 Named Stuff are sometimes a lot better than T2 stuff.
NMDanny
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2014-01-06 18:38:33 UTC
As a somewhat newish player(4.3m SP) who had several breaks(because I got bored from all the waiting), I somewhat agree.
It takes a colossal amount of time to be able to use T2 ships. I really want to try out T2 frigates such as the interceptor, stealth bomber and scan covops, but 20 days for that are too much, since I'm not able to train other things i'm interested in.

This is why newbies(including me) jump into bigger T1 ships , it's much faster than training into a T2 frig/cruiser hull.
I'm talking about PVE of course, i'm in no way fit to PVP in my T1 BC with level 3-4 support skills, but I PVE fine.


Still, I prefer the SP system over training skills in other games such as Runescape and WoW, where not only you need to spend a lot of time but also get carpal tunnel in progress. But there can be a lot of changes to make EvE friendlier to newbies.