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Skill Discussions

 
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EVE's greatest strength - is also it's greatest weakness. The SP grind for new players.

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Pyrasanth
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#181 - 2013-07-21 18:20:37 UTC
I have over 140 million skill points & there are still achievements to be had and a range of activities I am not skilled up to do.

It is a matter of time before you achieve that tec2 battleship & indeed anything else you desire in the game.

It just takes patience & planning. Nobody is going to give you anything skill wise to help you on your way. Everything in Eve has a price & that price is time & patience.

I remember my first time in Null when I landed in my first POS. I marveled at the structures and the dreadnought sitting next to me & I had a desire to fly that ship & deploy & manage the structures around me & three years later I made that a reality. This is the real wonder & magic of Eve. A fantastic sense of achievement that no other MMO can give. The experience is to be savored.

Now......go out & plan & make that dream a reality. Fly safe.
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2013-07-22 07:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Asher
The frustration and time it is going to take me to train even one pathway really well are two major drawcards to this game for me - the instant gratification of other MMO's has bored me very quickly, and I quit them very quickly. I won't be quitting EVE.

Just to put in my 2 cents worth, but my skill progression has been hmm, frigates are small, and destroyers are fun, must be because they are bigger. So I focused on getting cruisers - then I could do level 3 missions and felt like a king, because they were bigger. So BC's must be even better. First time I took my Myrmidon out I was king of kings. I promptly had that blown up in a mission but that was fine, I had just trained and then been able to afford a BS and there was no way in a ship that big I could die. Lost it in the third lvl 4 mission I did.

Thankfully I had spent enough time in the game to appreciate a lot of the other aspects of it first, the corporation I was in, the economic model which was starting to help me make enough money to buy these ships and the absolute challenge of the game.

If I had have had a quicker route to getting those ships and skills, and lost them like that in a month instead of a couple of months, I quite probably would have quit. I thank CCP that I had enough time to learn to appreciate more in the game while I made some really stupid mistakes. I think they have got the progression time right for new players - those that grow bored easily will be happier in a more instantly rewarding MMO, nothing wrong with that, it just means this isn't the game for them in the same way WOW isn't the game for me.

There could be some improvements made, sure, but I really enjoyed having to figure a lot out for myself after tutorials, making some market mistakes as well as ships ones, and learning for myself. I feel like I have accomplished something already.

cheers

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Khen'do Khen
#183 - 2013-07-22 07:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Khen'do Khen
I'm a new player too I guess. This is the third time I've started again. Last time I played was two years ago. In the last week, I've had to relearn just the basics of the game, it's been so long. And my skill points are in the 9 mil level, so it's not like I really played all that much the other two times I've tried it. But this time, I think I'm here to stay.

That said, I don't think I can really agree with the whole "it takes too long" argument. There's so much to do, pick something, skill it, and you'll be good at it pretty quick. Should new players be able to skill faster? I don't see why. This is a game that's made to be played over a long period of time. You actually were born yesterday, compared to the people who've been around. If you're playing this game like you play other MMOs, you ARE doing it wrong. If you expect the same rewards that other MMOs offer, you ARE doing it wrong. If you want to make it to endgame and show off the same gear as people who played long before you did, you ARE doing it wrong.

If CCP did change the way skills are learned, to appease people like the OP, the people who have invested years and much money would certainly have to be appropriately compensated. That alone almost makes it impossible to do something like that. And even with compensation, the core of the fanbase would probably quit. I can't even say I'm in the core of the fanbase, but I would quit.

It's amazing, to me, that over the last 7 years, the numbers are pretty much the same. There is basically the same amount of people logged in as there were the first two times I subbed to this game. That's consistency. And I would assume that the vast majority of these people are the same people that were logged in the previous two times I tried this game. Why would CCP want to do anything to alienate these players just to grab new players? After all, it's their game, they've been here for the long haul, and CCP has listened to them to continue this game. I think it was a pretty big compromise just to do away with the learning skills, which most people had at 5 anyway. I did, and I didn't even play this game that much.

In short, this game just isn't for people who have the same complaints that the OP has. That's just the way it is. That's why the userbase has stayed so consistent for so long. It's a niche game that's not like any other MMO. Not one I can think of anyway. That's probably why I keep coming back.

When you start this game, you're born into it. You will never "catch" the older players in the terms mentioned by the OP. But that doesn't mean you can't find your place in this world, and still make your mark on it. You just have to go about it in a different way, and I think that's where new players get lost.
Khen'do Khen
#184 - 2013-07-22 08:07:54 UTC
Jeffrey Asher wrote:
Just to put in my 2 cents worth, but my skill progression has been hmm, frigates are small, and destroyers are fun, must be because they are bigger. So I focused on getting cruisers - then I could do level 3 missions and felt like a king, because they were bigger. So BC's must be even better. First time I took my Myrmidon out I was king of kings. I promptly had that blown up in a mission but that was fine, I had just trained and then been able to afford a BS and there was no way in a ship that big I could die. Lost it in the third lvl 4 mission I did.


And I just wanted to touch on this, because it does seem to be a place of contention. And for the record, I'm not calling you out or anything. Just that post made me think of this...

Old players tell new players to train supporting skills before they move up in ships for a reason. The highest ship I can fly right now is a Cruiser. But I can do level 3 missions in a Frigate with no sweat. And I can do some level 4 missions in a Frigate, and some still get hairy in a cruiser.
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2013-07-22 08:19:40 UTC
Khen'do Khen wrote:
Jeffrey Asher wrote:
Just to put in my 2 cents worth, but my skill progression has been hmm, frigates are small, and destroyers are fun, must be because they are bigger. So I focused on getting cruisers - then I could do level 3 missions and felt like a king, because they were bigger. So BC's must be even better. First time I took my Myrmidon out I was king of kings. I promptly had that blown up in a mission but that was fine, I had just trained and then been able to afford a BS and there was no way in a ship that big I could die. Lost it in the third lvl 4 mission I did.


And I just wanted to touch on this, because it does seem to be a place of contention. And for the record, I'm not calling you out or anything. Just that post made me think of this...

Old players tell new players to train supporting skills before they move up in ships for a reason. The highest ship I can fly right now is a Cruiser. But I can do level 3 missions in a Frigate with no sweat. And I can do some level 4 missions in a Frigate, and some still get hairy in a cruiser.


For sure - I don't know how many times I read that in guides etc and got caught up in the bigger ship thing anyway. Back to flying cruisers myself, and learning how to fly them properly. I won't be going into anything bigger for a while until I can do level 4's in a cruiser, meaning my real-world skill matches my game skill points.

My point was that if I had have had immediate access to that big, expensive ship, which I would have lost all the same anyway, I would most likely have quit in frustration. I probably would have bought some PLEX to fund a battleship because I would have been able to fly it well before I could earn the money to buy one and the temptation would have been there, and then had a massive tantrum when all that money went pew. Thankfully I have so much going on now after a couple of months I don't want to leave.

I agree with your post totally, I feel the game is pretty good as-is for new players in terms of skill times.

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2013-07-22 08:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeffrey Asher
Post deleted - same item posted twice

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#187 - 2013-07-22 10:42:16 UTC
Sweeet wrote:
Being a new player let me add my point of view. This will be the third time I’ve come back to EVE, but the first time I’ve lasted longer than a month. I’m actually going on 3 months now, but here’s the catch – I’ve barely played at all these past 3 months, why? Because the sheer volume of SP needed to put oneself in a Battleship with Tech II weapons is overwhelming to say the least. Also yes, I joined a corp with a veteran player, he showed me all the ropes, gave me a taste of the good life, even if I couldn’t do it all myself – which makes this entire debacle even worse... New players read about all the awesome things going on within the game or see them, sign up to get a taste of it, then promptly cancel because they realise just how long it will take to do all those awesome things, they realise just how long it will take to actually fly what they really want to fly..


Let me stop you right there. Do you know how long it takes to fly as part of FW team? About a day. Do you know how long it takes to participate in null as a member of Goons or provi defense fleet? About a month at most. You don't need T2 guns and you certainly don't need battleships to do so, whoever told you that or the 50% figure should seriously reconsider calling himself "veteran". You can push a max skilled and pimped Vindicator into the hands of a noobie and he'll still lose it as fast as he got it, probably to a 30 day old character that a veteran made for giggles. You know why? No, it's not the skill points, it's the experience that matters.

You want to have fun NOW? Then stop listening to others, grab your bolted ship with peashooters and join RvB or a FW team or something. I guarantee you, by the time your character is 4 years old, you'll barely have used a battleship while having the time of your life.

And to all noobies: get a good corp. It really makes all the difference in the world - and if someone in the corp tells you something can't be done, find another corp. Trust me, it's the difference between EVE sucking bad and being the best game ever.
arff
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2013-07-22 15:25:02 UTC
[/quote] And the belittling continues... Who are you to tell me I'm going too fast? I'm a pretty fast learner I'll have you know, and now the only choice I have is to buy a character if I'd like to knock a chip out this SP wall CCP have erected over 10 years.[/quote]


lol..you did make the thread. I just came back after a few years off, and agree with the guy who started in 2006. It was harder to start back then, the game had fewer defined paths for new players and it took months just to train learning skills. Eve isn't for everyone, but it has been successful for 10 years. The skill system is working as intended.
Sekida Katsuki
Perkone
Caldari State
#189 - 2013-07-26 22:31:27 UTC
Sweeet wrote:


Your experience 5 years ago as a new player can't really compare to being a new player joining now. It may have been mildly overwhelming for you back then, but now, after 10 years into the game, it feels pretty severely overwhelming to be a new player.

You also make out like getting all the Tech I skills for the career of your choice as a new player is a big deal. If you truly believe that to be a big deal, why is that? You have 5 years on people, at what disadvantage giving newbies Tech I skills going to put you at?


I'm a four times new player :) I started for real in 2008 i think... I can totally attest that EVE is WAY easier now then it was years ago. You think it's more overwhelming now??? come on ... back in the old days you didn't have a buddy system, you didn't have carrier tutorials... you didn't have starter subscription packs with boosters.... You were left sitting in a station going WTH do i do now??

These days it's a lot more friendly for new players... if you join off the buddy system, you'll start with 200+Million Isk... you have the carrier agents to give you a variety of new ships.

it's hardly overwhelming.

What's the "grind" you speak of? Grind is like old MMO's where you killed random stuff to level up... in Eve you put a skill in the que and let it run. there's literally no grind.

What you seem to want, is higher Tech, then starter tech.

I'm a new player... again.... started on the buddy program, didn't carry over any of my previous account stuff... so I'm right were you are... I got 275 Million Isk from a buddy invite... and he gave me a mining barge. Sure I can't use the barge yet... but the skills are in que.

I guess maybe the problem is that I am not drawn to a combat only game. Whereas I think you mgiht be. You're looking for combat effectiveness against other players early on. I went for industry/trade. Maybe I don't see your interests at the same depth you do. But I think there's still a lot you can do in the game without tech II gear... and working for tech II shouldn't take too long.

I've been playing 12 days I think... by day 10 I had several skills to level IV and getting all the stuff I need.
Sekida Katsuki
Perkone
Caldari State
#190 - 2013-07-26 22:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sekida Katsuki
Biff Ekpyrion wrote:
Sweeet wrote:


Again it's the "unofficial" rule that every newb is supposed to stick to. I would have agreed 5 years ago when there weren't so many T2+ Battleship pilots, but the game has been out for 10 years now and is inundated with them, sooner or later something has to give.



Veteran players have all the incentive to not wanting to change this system, whilst newer players have the exact opposite incentive. I think this is reflected in the debate.

-"Oh you're new, how cute. Go sit in the corner and play with your T1 frig until you've waited as long as we did. You can also mine while you watch tv shows."

Now I can also wait. Although it bugs me that I'm paying for this, I don't have many months left until I can fly one or two doctrine-ships with T2 guns for my alliance. So almost "there" soon I guess.

I just wished I could have brought at least one of my gaming buddies along with me to EVE. Alas all of them rofled at idea of playing the waiting game. The reason I'm still here is because I wanted to play with my brother. After half a year, maybe I soon can.


edit: spelling


I don't see the point you and the OP raise. It's the equivalent of joining WoW and complaining you can't hold your own with level 50's.

Is the only benefit you want from the game to do pvp with legacy users and be effective in those battles? If so, then yeah, you'll never reach not only the SP but the game knowledge to compete.

I think this whole argument is sideways.

I came to eve for the Adventure... not to be combat effective against legacy players in a month. If Eve worked that way, you'd loose all the legacy players... there has to be some balance.

I think Eve made strides in balancing the new player experience.

The argument from the OP's side is:
I want T2 stuff, I need it to have fun

The argument from the crowd is:
You don't need T2 stuff to have fun

his response is:
Don't tell me how to play the game. I really want T2 and don't want to wait for it.

If all you want is a virtual piece of software that says you have T2 equipment... do you really think that will make your day? make you combat effective now? make things better?

What people come to eve for (I think) is the adventure. So instead of "waiting" for skills to finish.... go and take a ship through a wormhole... go to nullsec. do something different.

Everytime I quite eve in the past, I did what you guys did... I waited. That waiting killed me. Now I realize Eve is an adventure. So I went through a wormhole the other day... when my account was 6 days old.

People were like "don't even think of that..." but hey, it's really just a game, and I want to try something new... it's doing that, that will get you the adventure... and you won't need T2 equipment to be happy... you'll start having the adventure with T1 stuff. You'll find the drama, the spies, the pvp'ers, pirates, anti-pirates... that's what separates Eve from other MMO's.

Sure there's drama in a WoW guild... but what WoW guild can say, " the previous CEO (guild leader) took all the isk and made a run for it.... if you gave him donations... we appologoize... we'll put a bounty on his head and try and weather this out..." most games don't let you effect players by stealing their items, communicating to your enemies... this game does.

T2 isn't what makes this game a game... it's just getting out there that makes eve fun. Don't wait for that special skillset to pilot the special ship. Just go out and do something crazy. Shoot at a miner in low sec... befriend a miner in null sec... jump a wormhole... scan for relic sites...

If Eve needs to do anything for new players, it would be to convince them to just go do some crazy s*** and have an adventure. Sure the you could be like: "I took your F@@@ing advice and the wormhole collapsed... I'm stuck in a place with no freak'n local chat!!!!" but i'm sure you'll have an adventure getting back. That's what makes Eve fun IMO. The adventure.
Sekida Katsuki
Perkone
Caldari State
#191 - 2013-07-26 22:56:27 UTC
Tibo Paralian wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
If player retention is bad how has this game grown in subs every year since release Roll?


subs != players


But subs = $$

Every game has duplicate accounts. so what?

You think the game is suffering? If the game was suffering it would be like:
- Everquest II
- The Secret World
- Lord of the Rings Online
- Star Trek MMO
- Star Wars The Old Republic MMO

The above and many more went Free 2 Play... Many games thought they were too hard, made themselves easy to capture the WoW market... only to fail later.

Eve is 10 years old and still not F2P. I think Eve is doing just fine. I never log in and see only silent alts. do you? there's always chatter.
Sekida Katsuki
Perkone
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-07-26 23:14:29 UTC
Auduin Samson wrote:
I'm kinda barreling past a lot of the discussion here, but I do think the OP is onto something. All T1 skills is a bit rash, but maybe at least a more robust starting skillset would be nice. Something to keep new players interested longer. This would have almost no impact on the game, as these are quick training skills that all experienced players have, but it could mean the difference between a new player staying and quitting because they are frustrated at their inability to accomplish anything early on.

Personally, this what I think a new player should be able to do. The game has a lot of these already, but a few tweaks and additions could make a world of difference to a newbie.

1. Fly a frigate of their starting faction
2. Fly a mining frigate
3. Fit prop mods
4. Fit tank mods
5. Fit whatever weapons their faction uses
6. Use a mining laser

Ideally, all newbie related (IE small, frigate, T1 stuff) non-support skills should start with a character at Level 1 (for example, you can use an afterburner, but you need to buy Acceleration Control before it shines). This way people would be able to quickly try out what they like, figure out where they want to go, and begin specializing right away. Would it give a newbie today a bigger head start than a newbie from a year ago? Yes. It won't, however, kick off balance issues against pilots older than a couple weeks.



Eve ALREADY does this. On day 1, you can take the starter carrier tutorial missions. There are missions for Industry (mining), business (trade), Combat, advanced combat, exploration.... By the time you're done with them you get like 6 different ships of your faction with each specialization. You get loot to use mining lasers, probes, equipment, etc.

If you plan it out before you subscribe, you can find someone who will do the buddy starter kit with you - which they tend to offer new players 200+ Million ISK and a higher end ship.

Kalstir
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2013-07-28 19:58:52 UTC
I really think the only three things that need to be said about this supposed problem is:

1. EVE is not meant to played in solo mode..

2. SP is not the problem, Players can be effective from day 1.

3. Find a Corp that does what you want to do in EVE and go fly with them!

Problem solved!
Kalishka Askulf
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#194 - 2013-07-30 17:04:33 UTC
I've been playing Eve or 11 days, and I want my Megathron!

Only kidding, I do not support the OP's suggestion one iota.

Betty White knows it
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#195 - 2013-07-30 20:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: IIshira
Kalishka Askulf wrote:
I've been playing Eve or 11 days, and I want my Megathron!

Only kidding, I do not support the OP's suggestion one iota.


Welcome to Eve... I only hope you don't rage quit when you find out how "nice" Eve players can be Big smile

I made it past the "This is so unfair" stage and I'm so glad I did!
Kalishka Askulf
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2013-07-31 09:02:10 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Kalishka Askulf wrote:
I've been playing Eve or 11 days, and I want my Megathron!

Only kidding, I do not support the OP's suggestion one iota.


Welcome to Eve... I only hope you don't rage quit when you find out how "nice" Eve players can be Big smile

I made it past the "This is so unfair" stage and I'm so glad I did!



Oddly enough, I am at the "this is unfair" stage. Look at my KM, it's effing appauling (not one single kill to my name, but lot's of defeats!!!). However, I learn a teeny tiny bit more with each fight. I have now reached the point where fights last more than 5 seconds....... I'm learning on the slow road Lol

Betty White knows it
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#197 - 2013-08-01 03:54:32 UTC
Kalishka Askulf wrote:
IIshira wrote:
Kalishka Askulf wrote:
I've been playing Eve or 11 days, and I want my Megathron!

Only kidding, I do not support the OP's suggestion one iota.


Welcome to Eve... I only hope you don't rage quit when you find out how "nice" Eve players can be Big smile

I made it past the "This is so unfair" stage and I'm so glad I did!



Oddly enough, I am at the "this is unfair" stage. Look at my KM, it's effing appauling (not one single kill to my name, but lot's of defeats!!!). However, I learn a teeny tiny bit more with each fight. I have now reached the point where fights last more than 5 seconds....... I'm learning on the slow road Lol


My advice is if you want to PVP join a corp that does it. Eve isn't about fair or sporting 1vs1 PVP. You get a big group together and pound on some poor unsuspecting sucker that just jumped into lowsec... Just don't be the poor unsuspecting sucker LOL
auraofblade
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2013-08-03 03:01:24 UTC
Sekida Katsuki wrote:
You were left sitting in a station going WTH do i do now??

Ah memories. The first time I tried to play EVE was back in 2008 or something. I undocked and immediately went "wtf do I do?" I couldn't even figure out how to move, so I gave up right then and there. That's where ye olde learning curve came from - the game taught you jack diddly squat.

Back to the OP: immediately trying to skill for a T2 BS is a horrible mistake. Just take it from a fellow might-as-well-be-newbie: when I finally got to toss T2 cruises on my Raven, I used it for...L4s. And that's it. Seriously, if you plan on having actual fun instead of mindlessly grinding L4s for ISK like it's a part time job, don't immediately shoot for a T2 BS.

And echoing the rest of the thread - PEOPLE. This game was boring as all hell while I was solo, but now that I'm in a corp that actually does stuff I've been genuinely motivated to do things. Like that time where I recklessly lost a Retriever in a C2 because I was sick and tired of doing runs in a Venture...for 4 hours.
Iskander Phoenix
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2013-08-05 14:12:36 UTC
i personally see the progression system as an accidental masterstroke by CCP. as new players (myself included) progress through the game you acquire more skills to do more things. until you've "leveled up" you are stuck doing rather basic things. mining ore, basic missions, t1 manufacturing. however these are major drivers of the economy. t1 stuff is necessary for a lot of pvp (from what i know) and ore mining is simply always mining. by giving new players time to develop skills and most importantly capital (whats the point in having a BC or BS if you cant buy another one?) along with the ability to join corps and actually experience the game while still giving them long term goals. like i reckon so many more players would just drop the game if higher level ships were easy to attain. wheres the challenge in that?
sorry more of a ramble then anything lol
El Zeta
Maricel Inc
#200 - 2013-08-05 15:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: El Zeta
Look at it on the bright side, you get to remap to what ever fancies your skill needs and you dont have to waste months on skilling up learning skills so you could be half decent on your attributes.

Also most of spent months skilling up for months just to fly a decent T1 fit BC with the crappy attributes you got stuck with besides the learning skills.

I spent almost 1 year with not a darn idea of how to proper skill my character, hence the eve need to join a good group of people to help you skill up properly.

Also, even as a noob you can kill 100+mil sp player, when I first joined a pvp corp it really helped me feel great when we would kill some dude who was way more skilled than me if I went head to head toe to toe with him I would not have had a chance, but then again eve is not about fighting fair.

So join a good pvp corp and feel good like I did, with proper guidance and help you will be leveling the field on your favor (although dont count on it 100% of the time), while skilling up to the point of being able to fight them by your self on solo roams.

And yes I flew a BC brutix with T1 small rails and with a small shield booster along with a small armor rep and kept wondering why I would loose my BC on lvl 2 missions..

Edit: Soo join eve-uni, or red vs blue so they can teach you the ropes, warning RvB will releive you from a lot of ships so be concious about it.