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Market Scamming is an Exploit

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Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2013-07-08 01:28:06 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
You've missed the point entirely OP. I know this has already been said many times, but here it is again.

The scam is not "exploiting" the market order.

The scam is "exploiting" players' greed and lack of common sense.

Like every other scam in existence, if you simply do the tiniest modicum of research, you will see the glaring hole.

In this case, the "research" is quite literally a single click away from the scam.


So...what exactly was this post meant to do? Propose a solution to the perceived problem? I don't see one. Generate discussion? The topic has been discussed to hell and back, with never a single intelligent thought on how, or why one would do away with this scam.

You are an insular player-type with limited knowledge of the game, and yet consider yourself capable of generating an informed opinion from your own understanding. That is exactly the same type of person who would fall for a margin scam.

I have something you should read before you post such drivel again: http://imgur.com/NOTa2Pf


The post is intended to create discussion, hence it being in the general discussion page. The discussion is based on the practice of intentionally putting yourself into Default utilizing margin trading and debating on it being an exploit.


but because you're the type of forum fighter that fuels their opinion with personal attacks, i suppose for you this discussion serves no reason and you're welcome to NOT Post here.

but the argument stands.
Intentionally Putting yourself into Default and creating False Buy orders is something of concern, i feel.
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2013-07-08 01:35:05 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
I just want to know how much OP got scammed for. The only people that start these threads are whiny babies who are naive enough to fall for the scam, so OP must fall into that category.

Did they get your life savings, OP?

A month worth of level 4 missions?

Inquiring minds want to know.



none, i don't get scammed.

i waste my money by doing stupid things along the lines of intentionally using poorly fitted vessels for serious missions. Smart Bombing Noctis on L3's, 250mm Dual Rails on a Naga, Rainbow Oracle, Projectile Rokh...

I usually don't have money to get scammed because it is all invested in ships which i will likely get destroyed in short order for doing something risky or stupid for fun.

So, no, this isn't a rage thread based on 'i got scammed! i want revenge!' ...
It is a third party observation made while i was hanging around Jita fitting another suicide ship and thought enough of it to be discussion worthy.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#83 - 2013-07-08 02:04:07 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
The post is intended to create discussion, hence it being in the general discussion page. The discussion is based on the practice of intentionally putting yourself into Default utilizing margin trading and debating on it being an exploit.


Nobody's going into default, as no debt is created, so there's no debt that can't be serviced.

The same thing happens if you go to WalMart, get to the cash register, and don't have the money to cover your bill. You're not in default because there's no debt to default on.

You may find better traction with your ideas if you don't start with premises that are false on their face.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-07-08 03:09:26 UTC
you know how you avoid market scams?


look at the min volume for a sale if it says any thing other than 1 its a scam.


its that simple.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#85 - 2013-07-08 04:30:36 UTC
Gilat Sumat wrote:
Why even allow characters to even post a buy orders if they were never going to have enough isk in their wallets for the transaction? I understand the margin trading skill can somewhat put-off the full payment of the order when placed but the whole transaction should somehow be covered before it’s listed.
That would temove the entire point of the skill. The reason you're allowed to post the order s because you're assumed to have the cash ready when it's needed, and if not, you have wasted a bunch of fees on transctions that never happened. You're allowed to o it becuse nothing bad happens (to nyone other than whoever set up the order) if the ISK isn't there in the end.

Also, why does it need to be covered? Again, it's not like anyone gets screwed over if the wallet is empty when someobe tries to sell to the order. The mechanics protect both parties and no-one loses anything.
Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-07-08 06:30:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Gilat Sumat]The mechanics protect both parties and no-one loses anything.


This is the source of the problem. Buy orders need to be treated more like RL contracts for two reasons.

1. The amount the buyer places in escrow is never at risk, leading to these types of margin trading scams and unbalancing the 'market PVP' in favor of the buyer.
2. Whether or not a trade is a margin trade is not visible to the seller, nor is the amount in escrow.

The current set of margin trading scams are abusing the game mechanics. Raising the bar and reducing the profit that someone can make off margin scamming will handle the problem without removing the benefit of margin trading.

Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market.

These changes are self-balancing and when the scammers fail to see profit in this exploit once it's fixed they will move to something more worthwhile like jet-can mining in Tama Twisted.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#87 - 2013-07-08 06:51:54 UTC
I hate this scam, not because i've ever fallen for it, but because it mainly effects the newer players that know no better that assume that the market system itself is safe and risk-free. It can easily take away all their hard earned isk in an instant, and similtaniously destroy their trust in the very market system itself.

Plenty of newer players have stopped playing (or at least, claimed that they intend to stop playing) after becoming victims of this scam. I believe that in itself should be reason enough for CCP to do something about it.

But then again, this one has been around for ages now, and CCP doesn't seem to give a rats ass.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Krete
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2013-07-08 07:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Krete
Utzam wrote:

Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market.


Sure, once CCP gets past all the pages of FUD in this thread resisting change.

I like the idea of having more information in the market about each order.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#89 - 2013-07-08 07:18:00 UTC
Utzam wrote:

Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market.


It is.
It is.
Why? The seller cannot lose anything due to a margin trade failing.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#90 - 2013-07-08 07:19:30 UTC
tl;dr drugs are bad mmkay
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-07-08 07:30:28 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
I hate this scam, not because i've ever fallen for it, but because it mainly effects the newer players that know no better that assume that the market system itself is safe and risk-free. It can easily take away all their hard earned isk in an instant, and similtaniously destroy their trust in the very market system itself.

Plenty of newer players have stopped playing (or at least, claimed that they intend to stop playing) after becoming victims of this scam. I believe that in itself should be reason enough for CCP to do something about it.

But then again, this one has been around for ages now, and CCP doesn't seem to give a rats ass.

So it's like all the other scams. If you don't know what you're doing, you can lose a lot of money. If you actually bother to find out or read the details, you'll spot that something is very wrong here. I'm not seeing how this is somehow qualitatively any different from all the other scams there are. If anything it's not as bad, since the actual damage done is through a legitimate trade where they paid too much for a product. They don't suffer damage from the failed trade, keep the items and can pass the damage on to other people or at least recover some of the invested ISK.
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-07-08 07:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Inokuma Yawara
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And again, someone is trying to make the case that players need to be protected from their own stupidity. Oh yes, and arguing that cleverness is an exploit.

An exploit is whatever CCP says it is. CCP says this is not an exploit. End of story.



No. You and a bunch of other players have been saying it isn't an exploit. No one from CCP has said anything on this thread topic.

However, I will submit that I am fairly convinced by the well reasoned arguments showing this is not an exploit. OP brought forward a legitimate matter to discussion, and those who responded with examples and such, have won their argument.

But CCP has said nothing, here.

Domanique Altares wrote:
I just want to know how much OP got scammed for. The only people that start these threads are whiny babies who are naive enough to fall for the scam, so OP must fall into that category.

Did they get your life savings, OP?

A month worth of level 4 missions?

Inquiring minds want to know.


Your comment adds no value to this conversation. Nothing you said added to my education of this, most intriguing, discussion.

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-07-08 08:20:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Inokuma Yawara
Deleted for double posting. Sorry.

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#94 - 2013-07-08 08:59:12 UTC
Inokuma Yawara wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And again, someone is trying to make the case that players need to be protected from their own stupidity. Oh yes, and arguing that cleverness is an exploit.

An exploit is whatever CCP says it is. CCP says this is not an exploit. End of story.



No. You and a bunch of other players have been saying it isn't an exploit. No one from CCP has said anything on this thread topic.

However, I will submit that I am fairly convinced by the well reasoned arguments showing this is not an exploit. OP brought forward a legitimate matter to discussion, and those who responded with examples and such, have won their argument.

But CCP has said nothing, here.


CCP's View on this

Note this part: 6. SCAMMING
Severe offenses may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player:

•a. Illegally obtains items from another through use of an exploit or cheat method.
•b. Intentionally creates contracts that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities.
•c. Has been told by a GM to discontinue a scam ploy and disregards the instruction.


** Nothing about Market scamming as OP is discussing it.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-07-08 10:48:04 UTC
BoSau Hotim wrote:

•b. Intentionally creates contracts that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities.


This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.

The current system protects those who abuse margin trading by withholding information relating to buy/sell orders. Buy/sell orders should not be special cased in favor of the scammers.

Simple solutions do exist to this problem.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#96 - 2013-07-08 10:50:02 UTC
Utzam wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:

•b. Intentionally creates contracts that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities.


This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.

The current system protects those who abuse margin trading by withholding information relating to buy/sell orders. Buy/sell orders should not be special cased in favor of the scammers.

Simple solutions do exist to this problem.
That was put there for completely different reasons. Plus this mechanic is using normal game mechanics, so no sorry. But nice try.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-07-08 11:03:32 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Plus this mechanic is using normal game mechanics, so no sorry. But nice try.


Cyno's in the middle of the sun also use normal game mechanics. Twisted
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#98 - 2013-07-08 12:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Utzam wrote:
This is the source of the problem.
What problem?
The buyer is never at risk (beyond losing a lot of cash on nothing) but neither is the seller. The seller doesn't particularly need to know the state of someone else's wallet because if it doesn't cover the sale, nothing happens and no-one gets hurt.

Quote:
The current set of margin trading scams are abusing the game mechanics.
In what way?

Quote:
Two changes are needed. The first is that the entire escrow amount should be fair game for the seller to take from the buyer in the event a margin buy order defaults. The escrow amount should be at least 25-40% of the total value of the buy order. The amount in escrow should be visible in the market.
The first two are already the case; the last one should definitely not happen, since people have no business knowing other people's wallet states. Look, if you don't even understand the mechanics involved, maybe you should resist trying to claim they are problematic or an exploit, since you quite simply don't know whether or not it is working as intended due to your unfamiliarity with said mechanics.

Quote:
This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.
…except that it's not a contract and that it can be completed through normal game mechanics and abilities.
knowsitall
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-07-08 12:31:35 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
This is more of a discussion intended to plea my point of view and belief and see if others agree.

Margin Trading is a Skill which reduces the amount of Escrow required to be put up at the point of a Buy Order's Issuing. Thus allowing a player to place buy orders which exceeds his current wallet funds. Now this is a valid skill and Margin Trading is an actual economic thing which many players successfully play every day on the markets as they balance buying and selling so that their issued buy orders are filled upon their purchase.

However, this has opened up a method of conning players out of their isk known as 'Margin Scamming' where a player will issue a buy order that is grossly above the market average then emptying their wallets so that when ever some one tries to fill that buy order, the trade is cancelled simply because the player's wallet lacks the funds to fill the buy order. This scam is usually accompanied by using alts to provide the asked items, usually at an inflated price.

Now, i am not against scamming. Market and Player freedom are things which makes Eve great in my eyes. However, this 'scam' is using an exploit... That is exploiting the fact that a players wallet can never go into the Red. Because we can never accrue debt, orders that can not be filled are simply cancelled. Which means those that intentionally default on these buy orders are never charged, punished, or even put out by their actions.

I understand, however, that debt is something that would crush the standing Eve market because it would be a source of infinite isk as players would simply obtain billions upon billions in debt then throw that character away, never paying the accumulated debt back. So that is not a solution to this problem. Further more, Margin Trading is a valid method of market play allowing players to move mountains of assets and Isk liquidized in orders on the markets, so outright removing the ability is also not really an option.

However, i view this as an Issue which is required to be looked at as these players are Exploiting the Player Wallet in order to advance themselves above other at the expense of the inexperienced player.

Now before you go and say- 'You're whining because you got scammed' or something to that extent but probably in not so many words... I have never fell for Margin Scamming, And i am not one that thinks negatively about scamming because i believe that it is a valid way to play EvE as you're out-witting and out-playing others in the game. But it is just something that i have observe and have an adverse feeling towards because i believe that it is exploiting the game itself rather then praying upon and exploiting others, which is what EvE is all.

I would be intrested in hearing others feelings and thoughts on this matter.
so... what do you think?


I agree with this. I think an easy fix would be regardless of your margins trading buy orders should take into escrow a minimum of a buy of your minimum volume. Therefore ALWAYS one buy order has to be fill but not all. Then when a buy order is filled, it does an new escrow for for the minimum volume.

This way people who are not "scamming" still only need a some escrow (especially as they tend to have 1 unit minimum orders) people falsely avertising that they buy stuff have to buy 1 order, then if they can't fill the escrow for the second minimum their order is cancelled.

I think this would do it.

KIA
Utzam
State War Academy
Caldari State
#100 - 2013-07-08 13:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Utzam
Tippia wrote:
What problem? The buyer is never at risk (beyond losing a lot of cash on nothing) but neither is the seller. The seller doesn't particularly need to know the state of someone else's wallet because if it doesn't cover the sale, nothing happens and no-one gets hurt.


Yes, your making a great case for their being a problem. No-one getting hurt is a relative distinction based on your assumption that the buyer can walk away from their buy order after the seller accepts.

The fact that this is even a scam is amusing because ultimately the seller should be walking all over them for putting up such a grossly overpriced buy contract. This is a well documented part of contract law. The current implementation in Eve is incomplete.

Tippia wrote:

The first two are already the case..

False. If the buy order defaults the buyer gets to walk away instead of being forced to give the seller his entire escrow amount. The key here is that the buyer loses his escrow to the seller.

Tippia wrote:

Look, if you don't even understand the mechanics involved, maybe you should resist trying to claim they are problematic or an exploit since you quite simply don't know whether or not it is working as intended due to your unfamiliarity with said mechanics.


Very familiar actually. Understanding how the mechanics work and realizing that Eve's implementation is faulty are not mutually exclusive.

Quote:
This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.

exploit
n.
to take advantage of (a person, situation, etc.), esp unethically or unjustly for one's own ends

Tippia wrote:

…except that it's not a contract and that it can be completed through normal game mechanics and abilities

con·tract
n.
An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law.

Buy orders certainly qualify as contracts by any reasonable definition. I wouldn't confine yourself to such a static rule set. Laws change all the time, and it's about time CCP fixed this.