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Market Scamming is an Exploit

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#181 - 2013-07-09 05:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
The Marketer wrote:
I hear you. I may be wrong but can you also comment on my proposed solution since you seems to know about it?

If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple.

I don't see a problem tbh, I'm often on the borderline of not having enough isk to fulfil a buy order, I play the odds that my sell orders will provide the isk I need to fulfil the buy order. If the odds don't come through then my buy order disappears when someone tries to sell to it, generally there's plenty of other traders willing to purchase the same things I'm buying.

All your proposed solution does is screw me and every other trader who's playing the odds. Admittedly it would probably screw the scammers as well, but it's akin to using a steamroller to iron your clothes when an iron will do the job.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#182 - 2013-07-09 06:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
The Marketer wrote:
I hear you. I may be wrong but can you also comment on my proposed solution since you seems to know about it?

If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple.


1) Escrow is always depleted first, so your proposal would result in "legitimate" margin orders always vanishing after ~25% of the order being filled.
2) You can sell things to buy orders at prices lower than they're offering. (This means you can steal the escrow out from a margin order if you're more clever than they are.) So you can virtually always complete a transaction for the amount of ISK remaining in Escrow.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#183 - 2013-07-09 06:32:14 UTC
The Marketer wrote:
There are for sure many items I dont know the regular price. Today I looked at a faction item which has no sell order or contract advertised in Jita local. It only had a single item buy order of 1B. At first I thought it was a margin trading scam like many others. I could have looked at the history to determine if this was the regular price but was too lazy and moved on.

The thing is, the margin trading scam in his current form makes even a decent old char like me to not trust the market. I can imagine what it can do to newbies and I am sure many newbies would even quit EVE after falling for such scam with their hard earned ISK. If I had fallen for such trick back in time when I had my first billion, for sure I would have loose faith in the market and may have quit the game.

In his current form, Margin trading can only benefits scammers and manipulates badly the market. It is a broken mechanic. In real life, such behaviors would result in some sort of punishment. In Eve, the player can exploit it as long as he want.

If CCP still wants to support that broken and useless skill/mechanic, they should make on or more of the next modifications in my opinion:

If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple.

Margin trading orders should be identified in some way, telling the other player that the order may not go through. This would avoid also the other bad effects of MT with seasoned players for other legitimate products: those buy order that are used to manipulate the market to raise the legitimate buy order who follows it back.

Implement some consequences if you fail to complete a MT order, there are many ways to do this.

This is my opinion and no I havent fall for a MT scam. (English is my second language)

TM


Yet, there are many of us who say it is not broken or useless, and allowing scammers is all part of the EvE experience. For many of us warning players that it may be a margin trading scam is like CCP making all gankers anounce that they are about to blow up a retriever in system that is quietly mining. Where does it stop then? Do we need to anounce every contract scam? every time someone is going to quietly steal all assets in a POS? Most noobs dont' know about those things, do they need to be officially warned before it happens? These are just questions I am putting out there for you to think about. Blink

Someone has mentioned this before and I am repeating it. When it is stated that this is a PvP game, they are not just talking about blowing up ships, it is also PvP in the market too.


I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Frying Doom
#184 - 2013-07-09 06:36:33 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes your wallet balance and transactions are not conducted by a third party at all. Lol

A failed order cost is hardly a cost, as you would still pay it on a successful order.

Hit them with a fine. It would make at least for a funny isk sink.


No, they're conducted by brokers. Who are paid in fixed fees.

The Broker's fees are a cost in both instances. The failed order fails to provide you with the benefit (the transaction) you paid your broker for.

Again, they are hit with a fine. They do not get the benefit normally received from paying the broker's fees, so those fees are wasted.

Besides that:
1) Nobody (besides the person whose buy order failed) hurt by a failed buy order, so why fine someone for something that doesn't hurt anyone?
2) The character you're suggesting fining is insolvent. They have no ISK to take (otherwise the order would be filled). So how would you fine them?

1)The moron who fell for the over inflated buy order is hurt.
2) Does your bank fine you if you are insolvent? Of course they do, you overdraw, you get hit with a fee, You write a bad cheque, you get hit with a fee. Now you suddenly get money in your account, who gets paid first....The bank.

The brokers fee is for placing the order, which they did and got paid for. Not having the funds there you are not penalized for in any way, and you should be...Mostly so we can see a massive influx of scammers tears Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#185 - 2013-07-09 06:54:04 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

1)The moron who fell for the over inflated buy order is hurt.


The moron hurt himself when he purchased goods at above market value. The buy order is irrelevant.

A fool and his money are soon parted.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#186 - 2013-07-09 06:55:27 UTC
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Do we need to anounce every contract scam?



Personally, I announce all of my contract scams. The stupid and the naive have a harder time blundering into them otherwise.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#187 - 2013-07-09 06:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Frying Doom wrote:
1)The moron who fell for the over inflated buy order is hurt.


They still have their stuff. The price they paid for the items is irrelevant to the question of whether or not they're hurt by their inability to sell their goods to a specific market order.


Quote:
2) Does your bank fine you if you are insolvent? Of course they do, you overdraw, you get hit with a fee, You write a bad cheque, you get hit with a fee. Now you suddenly get money in your account, who gets paid first....The bank.

The brokers fee is for placing the order, which they did and got paid for. Not having the funds there you are not penalized for in any way, and you should be...Mostly so we can see a massive influx of scammers tears Lol


Except that the market escrow system is not a bank. It is an escrow system.

Aside from that, you can't overdraw on your wallet, nor can you write a bad checque, so there's no fee to charge even if it were.

You are penalized. Your order fails, meaning that you need to spend the broker's fee again in order to have a chance at purchasing the items you want to buy. If you had the ISK to cover, you'd have the items and wouldn't need to pay the broker's fee a second time.

If you want to hurt "margin" scammers, snake their escrow, or cause their orders to fail using items purchased at their actual value (so you can later sell those items at a profit or at no loss). (In quotes because the scam is complete once you've purchased the item, not when you try to sell it as you seem to think).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#188 - 2013-07-09 07:07:19 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Daisai wrote:
There is a way in fixing this, you can add a filter on the market which allow you to ignore buy orders which have been placed with this skil.

Congratulations, you just completely broke the market. Using a filter to remove buy orders placed with the margin trading skill would filter out about 90% of all the buy orders currently in place.

In short, you're advocating punishing the many legitimate traders who use the skill, to protect the greedy idiots who think they can make a quick profit and end up getting scammed.



It seems the level of posters is ones again pretty low on this forum.
I dont see a reason to change this skill, i dont agree with its use but its fine with me.

I simply made a suggestion on how to come to a compromise between people against this skill and the people who use it.
If you use the filter to ignore buy orders which have bee placed with margin trading the only person who losses money in such a case is the seller since he/she has less buy orders to sell to.

So the people who use this skill without the scamming are hardly effected by this.

Anyway like i said, i dont care if they change this skill im just giving a suggestion.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#189 - 2013-07-09 07:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Daisai wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Daisai wrote:
There is a way in fixing this, you can add a filter on the market which allow you to ignore buy orders which have been placed with this skil.

Congratulations, you just completely broke the market. Using a filter to remove buy orders placed with the margin trading skill would filter out about 90% of all the buy orders currently in place.

In short, you're advocating punishing the many legitimate traders who use the skill, to protect the greedy idiots who think they can make a quick profit and end up getting scammed.



It seems the level of posters is ones again pretty low on this forum.
I dont see a reason to change this skill, i dont agree with its use but its fine with me.

I simply made a suggestion on how to come to a compromise between people against this skill and the people who use it.
If you use the filter to ignore buy orders which have bee placed with margin trading the only person who losses money in such a case is the seller since he/she has less buy orders to sell to.

So the people who use this skill without the scamming are hardly effected by this.

Anyway like i said, i dont care if they change this skill im just giving a suggestion.

Your suggestion was a filter, if the filter is on it penalises legitimate buyers as well as reducing potential customers for the seller, it's not that hard to wrap your head around, just as it's not that hard to avoid the margin trading scam if you're not being greedy. Please explain how filtering out buy orders, most of which are placed using the margin trading mechanic, doesn't break the market? (I'm well aware that you can already filter by jumps and system security, that's for convenience on the part of buyers and to cut down on travel time.)

The scam itself relies on the victims greed, if the victims weren't greedy, then there would be no scam.

On a side note, before you criticise the quality of other peoples posts, you should look at your own.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#190 - 2013-07-09 07:19:32 UTC
Daisai wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Daisai wrote:
There is a way in fixing this, you can add a filter on the market which allow you to ignore buy orders which have been placed with this skil.

Congratulations, you just completely broke the market. Using a filter to remove buy orders placed with the margin trading skill would filter out about 90% of all the buy orders currently in place.

In short, you're advocating punishing the many legitimate traders who use the skill, to protect the greedy idiots who think they can make a quick profit and end up getting scammed.



It seems the level of posters is ones again pretty low on this forum.
I dont see a reason to change this skill, i dont agree with its use but its fine with me.

I simply made a suggestion on how to come to a compromise between people against this skill and the people who use it.
If you use the filter to ignore buy orders which have bee placed with margin trading the only person who losses money in such a case is the seller since he/she has less buy orders to sell to.

So the people who use this skill without the scamming are hardly effected by this.

Anyway like i said, i dont care if they change this skill im just giving a suggestion.



But seriously, why does there need to be a compromise? Why do some people feel that everyone needs to be protected in this game?

This is not real life, yet it seems as though many people on the forums are taking up a cause as if this were real life and everything needs to be fair all the time.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#191 - 2013-07-09 07:31:41 UTC
Clever use of Margin Trading to set nasty traps for fun, profit and tears is no different to clever use of remote sensor boosting gatecamps to set nasty traps for fun, profit and tears.

Both are a part of what makes EVE great.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#192 - 2013-07-09 07:37:06 UTC
Daisai wrote:

If you use the filter to ignore buy orders which have bee placed with margin trading the only person who losses money in such a case is the seller since he/she has less buy orders to sell to.

So the people who use this skill without the scamming are hardly effected by this.

Anyway like i said, i dont care if they change this skill im just giving a suggestion.


It doesn't cost you anything if you try to sell to a buy order who can't cover their escrow. So why would you need to filter buy orders placed with margin trading?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#193 - 2013-07-09 07:38:45 UTC
actually margin trading is an exploit but the vulnerability isn't in the eve code, it's in the player, so it's all cool

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#194 - 2013-07-09 07:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: BoSau Hotim
Andski wrote:
actually margin trading is an exploit but the vulnerability isn't in the eve code, it's in the player, so it's all cool



No, it's not an exploit. It's a scam. CCP Falcon already stated that in this thread.

I took this from an EvE website:

Exploits

An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#195 - 2013-07-09 08:06:58 UTC
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Andski wrote:
actually margin trading is an exploit but the vulnerability isn't in the eve code, it's in the player, so it's all cool



No, it's not an exploit. It's a scam. CCP Falcon already stated that in this thread.

I took this from an EvE website:

Exploits

An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever.


"whoosh" - what you just heard as something grazed your head

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#196 - 2013-07-09 08:26:43 UTC
Andski wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Andski wrote:
actually margin trading is an exploit but the vulnerability isn't in the eve code, it's in the player, so it's all cool



No, it's not an exploit. It's a scam. CCP Falcon already stated that in this thread.

I took this from an EvE website:

Exploits

An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever.


"whoosh" - what you just heard as something grazed your head



you have nice hair... what does your face look like tho? Bear

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Frying Doom
#197 - 2013-07-09 08:36:32 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
1)The moron who fell for the over inflated buy order is hurt.


They still have their stuff. The price they paid for the items is irrelevant to the question of whether or not they're hurt by their inability to sell their goods to a specific market order.


Quote:
2) Does your bank fine you if you are insolvent? Of course they do, you overdraw, you get hit with a fee, You write a bad cheque, you get hit with a fee. Now you suddenly get money in your account, who gets paid first....The bank.

The brokers fee is for placing the order, which they did and got paid for. Not having the funds there you are not penalized for in any way, and you should be...Mostly so we can see a massive influx of scammers tears Lol


Except that the market escrow system is not a bank. It is an escrow system.

Aside from that, you can't overdraw on your wallet, nor can you write a bad checque, so there's no fee to charge even if it were.

You are penalized. Your order fails, meaning that you need to spend the broker's fee again in order to have a chance at purchasing the items you want to buy. If you had the ISK to cover, you'd have the items and wouldn't need to pay the broker's fee a second time.

If you want to hurt "margin" scammers, snake their escrow, or cause their orders to fail using items purchased at their actual value (so you can later sell those items at a profit or at no loss). (In quotes because the scam is complete once you've purchased the item, not when you try to sell it as you seem to think).

The scam requires both the buy order and the sell order. If the buy order was not there people would not buy it in the first place.

As to negative wallet balances, maybe you should tell RMTers that their wallet isn't negative Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2013-07-09 09:03:29 UTC
'You're whining because you got scammed'
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#199 - 2013-07-09 09:13:37 UTC
Kithran wrote:
So how do you distinguish between someone trying the margin trade scam and someone using margin trading legitimately who simply has had as many sales as they were expecting?


Invent a giant scam sniffing robot.

Name it the Plausible Deniabilitron

yes
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#200 - 2013-07-09 10:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Djana Libra
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

Drawing a line thru a definition doesnt fix or change that definition. At least not for the majority of us grounded in reality.


Yeah well ur playing a game its not reality....


also selling tear buckets!!! only 5 mil isk each!
theres a buy order up next door for 50 mil each!