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To Active Armor or Passive Shield?
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sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-07-08 17:08:25 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
It's all about stacking the SPRs, which go in lows. Extenders is buffer, takes up grid, and doesn't add to regen nearly as much.


Please do yourself a favor and keep that very 'special' math you invented locked up somewhere.

Which of the two is more effective depends entirely on the size of the shield they are added to, as the extender adds an absolute amount of regen (via shield size) while the SPR adds a percentage. Thus the extender will frequently add more regen than an SPR on top of the added buffer.


Wrong. For extenders to be competitive you must always use Extenders one size above hull size, as a result, forgo cap booster/mwd and limit yourself to short ranged guns to save grid. And in cases of BS like Rattlesnake, there is no XL shield extender. SPR's effect has no stacking penalty, and amplifies itself the more they are stacked.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-07-08 17:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
In most cases you cant use either/or you use both. SPRs without extenders are bad, extenders without SPRs are not quite as bad but still pretty bad.

Taking the drake for example, probably the most iconic passive tanker, 3 SPRs give less recharge than 3 LSEs even with resists and 3 purger rigs that you might think should swing tings in favour of the SPRs.

SPRs only start to get better after a certain threshold of BASE recharge and that's determined by the total shield hitpoints and obviously augmented by extenders

So to sum up: power relays are dependent on shield size to be effective, shield extenders just directly increase shield recharge rate by making the max shield hitpoints higher.

Also: who doesn't use oversized shield extenders? Almost all situations you can fit the ship with the largest guns, MWD, cap booster and oversized extenders.

Same cannot be said with 1600mm plates..

Art of Explosions
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-07-08 17:46:22 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
In most cases you cant use either/or you use both. SPRs without extenders are bad, extenders without SPRs are not quite as bad but still pretty bad.

Taking the drake for example, probably the most iconic passive tanker, 3 SPRs give less recharge than 3 LSEs even with resists and 3 purger rigs that you might think should swing tings in favour of the SPRs.

SPRs only start to get better after a certain threshold of BASE recharge and that's determined by the total shield hitpoints and obviously augmented by extenders

So to sum up: power relays are dependent on shield size to be effective, shield extenders just directly increase shield recharge rate by making the max shield hitpoints higher.

Also: who doesn't use oversized shield extenders? Almost all situations you can fit the ship with the largest guns, MWD, cap booster and oversized extenders.

Same cannot be said with 1600mm plates..


You can't use hml drake as the standard for all boats. Hml use less than half the grid of long range guns, and missiles are the only weapon system where long range variant use less grid than short range ones. Even then, you can't fit more than 2 without sacrificing mwd or cap booster.

No one said you can't fit oversized shield extenders, but fitting multiple LSEs means your fit will have to make sacrifices. Such sacrifices - long range gun vs short, mwd vs slowboating, cap boosted vs running out of cap, have drastic impacts on how you can fly, and should be taken into account for fitting choices. And of course, there's no XLSE for BS, unlike LSE for cruisers.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-07-08 17:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
in what situation would you EVER want to fit more than 2 extenders?

And another question: what shield fits EVER used cap boosters?

Art of Explosions
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-07-08 17:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
in what situation would you EVER want to fit more than 2 extenders?

And another question: what shield fits EVER used cap boosters?


You just cited a drake fit with 3 LSE. Thus I mentioned fitting difficulities of 3 LSE even for a Drake...Roll

As for cap booster, since OP is asking for a pve fit where mids aren't worth its weight in gold, he might want some cap and/or prop one of these days...P
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-07-08 18:02:50 UTC
the fit is hypothetical in a controlled situation to highlight the differences, not a practical fit. The reason I wanted to use 3 of each is because there will be that inevitable rebuttal "But SPRs are better the more you have of them" and show you that this isn't even the case.

I've never seen a PvE shield fit, active or passive that has required the use of a cap booster. Prop mod yes, but pretty much any pve shield ship has enough pg for 2 oversized extenders and a prop.

Art of Explosions
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-07-08 18:12:48 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
the fit is hypothetical in a controlled situation to highlight the differences, not a practical fit. The reason I wanted to use 3 of each is because there will be that inevitable rebuttal "But SPRs are better the more you have of them" and show you that this isn't even the case.


3 SPRs, on the other hand, hardly takes any fitting, and is very practical. So how does comparing a hypothetical fit to a practical one makes the hypothetical look better?

Quote:
I've never seen a PvE shield fit, active or passive that has required the use of a cap booster.


Prop is not "required" in pve either, but it's nice to have. Not having that fitting option is a sacrifice.

Quote:
Prop mod yes, but pretty much any pve shield ship has enough pg for 2 oversized extenders and a prop.


MWD fits only when you downgrade guns, which was the point.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-07-08 18:22:26 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
the fit is hypothetical in a controlled situation to highlight the differences, not a practical fit. The reason I wanted to use 3 of each is because there will be that inevitable rebuttal "But SPRs are better the more you have of them" and show you that this isn't even the case.


3 SPRs, on the other hand, hardly takes any fitting, and is very practical. So how does comparing a hypothetical fit to a practical one makes the hypothetical look better?

Quote:
I've never seen a PvE shield fit, active or passive that has required the use of a cap booster.


Prop is not "required" in pve either, but it's nice to have. Not having that fitting option is a sacrifice.

Quote:
Prop mod yes, but pretty much any pve shield ship has enough pg for 2 oversized extenders and a prop.


MWD fits only when you downgrade guns, which was the point.


Most ships that benefit from SPRs only have 4-5 lows, how is 3 SPR practical? You don't like doing damage?

Prop, however, allows you to mitigate damage and in turn reduce your cap pressure due to taking less damage. it has the additional benefit of allowing you to reposition faster. These are 2 advantages whereas the cap booster only has one: allows your cap to last longer.

Which fits exactly are you talking about where you have to downgrade guns to fit MWDs and a LSE?

Art of Explosions
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-07-08 18:43:26 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
the fit is hypothetical in a controlled situation to highlight the differences, not a practical fit. The reason I wanted to use 3 of each is because there will be that inevitable rebuttal "But SPRs are better the more you have of them" and show you that this isn't even the case.


3 SPRs, on the other hand, hardly takes any fitting, and is very practical. So how does comparing a hypothetical fit to a practical one makes the hypothetical look better?

Quote:
I've never seen a PvE shield fit, active or passive that has required the use of a cap booster.


Prop is not "required" in pve either, but it's nice to have. Not having that fitting option is a sacrifice.

Quote:
Prop mod yes, but pretty much any pve shield ship has enough pg for 2 oversized extenders and a prop.


MWD fits only when you downgrade guns, which was the point.


Most ships that benefit from SPRs only have 4-5 lows, how is 3 SPR practical? You don't like doing damage?

Prop, however, allows you to mitigate damage and in turn reduce your cap pressure due to taking less damage. it has the additional benefit of allowing you to reposition faster. These are 2 advantages whereas the cap booster only has one: allows your cap to last longer.

Which fits exactly are you talking about where you have to downgrade guns to fit MWDs and a LSE?


The Myrm we were talking about has 6 lows. I'm sure you can squeeze some dmg mods there somewhere. And on a boat with 5 lows, I'm sure using 3 of them is more practical than 3 LSEs that doesn't fit unless you use fitting mods... which go in lows.Lol

Cap is nice, I like having it, as opposed to not having it. Don't you? Of course, it's not mandatory, just like prop isn't mandatory. But having cap and fast is nicer than having no cap and slowboat, no? These are nice things you can have if don't just have to fit that one last oversized shield extender.Cool
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#30 - 2013-07-09 11:37:42 UTC
Anna Verhyldvar wrote:
I should also add that if CCPs recent change to the Dominix is any indication, then the Ishtar will probably be losing its bonus to medium hybrid turrets, and getting a drone range + tracking bonus, which means that shield tanking will probably be favored since the omnidirectional tracking links will be less necessary


they allready dit that with the Nvexor, so I dont see a reason they would do that. A revamp of the ishtars bonusses would be nice though..
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-07-09 11:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobias Hareka
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I've never seen a PvE shield fit, active or passive that has required the use of a cap booster. Prop mod yes, but pretty much any pve shield ship has enough pg for 2 oversized extenders and a prop.


Nightmare.

Try to do Blood version of The Blockade without cap booster.
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