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Dual 180mm AutoCannon II or 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon I?

Author
ybcuz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-07-05 22:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ybcuz
Hi all,

I apologize if this is a dumb question, but, being new and having compared specs on both of the guns listed in the subject line of this post, and I'm really at a loss re: what justifies the 10x price difference between the two. Here are the stats of both, all others being equal (pretty sure--I could have missed something):

D180AC2:
Capacity: 2.5 m^3
Mass: 12.5 k
Falloff: .8 km
Tracking: .139656 rad/s
ROF: 4.5 s
Opt. Range: 1.9 km
Dam. Mod.: 2.475

220VAC1:
Capacity: 2.0 m^3
Mass: 1,000 k
Falloff: 13.16 km
Tracking: .145728 rad/s
ROF: 2.81 s
Opt. Range: 1 km
Dam. Mod.: 3.0154

The only things that I can imagine justify this price difference are:

1. Mass (but I don't see how this is a huge issue on a Stabber, which is what I'm trying to fit);
2. Optimal range (but considering the split on falloff, this also seems trivial...);
3. Tracking (which is essentially .14 r/s : .145 r/s, which again seems trivial);
4. ROF (this one is actually pretty straight forward--does this really justify the difference?).

I'm assuming I am either completely missing a very important game mechanic, or the economy is jacked, but either way, a point in the right direction is most appreciated.

Cheers.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2013-07-05 23:03:53 UTC
Check your numbers. They're off to say the least.

Also, make sure you compare T2 to T2 or T1 to T1. That accounts for your price difference and then some.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-07-05 23:31:40 UTC
^ You're comparing a Meta 0 tech 1 module to a tech 2 meta 5 module. The difference in materials required to build each of them is significant.
ybcuz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-07-06 00:20:08 UTC
@Zhilia Mann: I'm not trying to be daft, but what numbers, exactly, are off? I'm referring to the numbers under the "Attributes" tab in the Information window....

@Tsukino Stareine: I know I am comparing these two different Tech level / Meta level modules.

What I'm asking is, all this considered, is there something I am missing in the numbers?

Disregarding materials costs, etc. , which don't matter to me, as I am a potential buyer, why would I in theory choose one over the other, especially considering the price?

Ie, as a security mission runner, what's my motivation to buy the Tech II over the regular 220mm Vulcan?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2013-07-06 00:48:07 UTC
Ok, let's break this down so it's comparable. We either want to compare the same meta level across weapon types or different meta levels within weapon types. I think most of the confusion here is coming from meta levels, so let's arbitrarily pick the 220s to compare.

220 Vulcans look like this:

Capacity 2
Power 100
CPU 21
Duration 4.725
Optimal 1800
Damage mod 2.31
Falloff 8800
Tracking .12144
Signature 125

.... and some heat stats I'm inclined to ignore right now, but ask if you're really curious.

The variation in the tech 2 220 comes on these lines:

Power 110
CPU 22
Optimal 2160
Damage mod 2.772

All other stats are the same.

How do we interpret this?

The T2 variation has slightly more optimal -- which with ACs we hardly care about. But it's there. So it will get slightly better hits at slightly longer ranges.

Damage mod is the big one: the tech 2 variation gives 20% more damage at base. There's another bonus you can't see from comparing stats: T2 guns get an additional boost to the damage modifier from the appropriate specialization skill that lower (and higher; discussion for another time) meta guns don't get, so you can easily add in another 8% there for a totaly of ~30% more damage.

T2 guns are also harder to fit than T1 variations, as we see in the 10 extra grid and 1 extra CPU.

Oh, and one more hidden bonus for T2 guns: they can use T2 ammunition (in this case, Barrage for range or Hail for... almost nothing tbh).

So. Are T2 guns worth the cost? Yes. Yes they are. And they're worth the training time. Doing 30% more damage alone should convince you of that; it's a huge boost.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2013-07-06 01:10:02 UTC
I'm bored; let's look at the other comparison. Here, we compare D180 IIs to 220 IIs (same meta level; I could have picked the base item but I tend to like to use T2 for baseline comparisons for whatever reason).

D180s have:

+ Higher capacity; more time between reloads
+ Lower power requirements
+ Lower CPU requirements
+ Lower duration (less time between shots)
- Lower optimal
- Lower damage mod
- Less falloff
+ Higher tracking

If we just count up benefits, it looks like D180s come out on top of 220s. But they really don't. And it's all about range and that damage mod.

Unfortunately, the D180s have a wretched 8000m falloff; 220s get an extra 10%. 220s also get about 10% more optimal. As a result, 220s hit better further out, so you don't have to get as close to your target to apply significant damage.

And then there's the extra 10% base damage. Now, this has to be thrown into a comparison between rate of fire and raw damage to get a basic idea of base DPS for each gun. For D180s, we get 2.475/4.5 = .55 base comparison DPS. For 220s, we get 2.772/4.725 = .587 base comparison DPS. It's not a whole lot more, but it's definitely more.

Once we factor in falloff mechanics, we can safely say that the 220s will start to significantly outdamage D180s at about optimal+1/2 falloff for the D180s -- while the 220s are still safely on the "not too much falloff" side of things. (Optimal + 1/2 falloff is considered to be ~80% of raw listed damage.)

And so in general, the bigger gun here is better. Now, that gets complicated if you're orbiting or being orbited very quickly or very close. There, the increased tracking on the D180s overcomes the range issues -- and the end up being the better gun. But if you find yourself in that spot in missions with any regularity you're Doing It Wrong™.
ybcuz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-07-06 01:42:24 UTC
@Zhilia Mann Thanks--I think that's the piece I was missing, ie, the skill-specific stat bonuses that aren't obvious to me yet because I don't have them. Lol.

Thanks for taking them time to set me straight.
ybcuz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-07-06 01:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ybcuz
"Doing It Wrong™."

Pretty much!

Just trying to strike some sort of balance for mid- / high-end Level 3's, on a budget.

I actively pilot on such missions, so I approach (for the line-of-sight ease) until about 14k - 11k, then I start orbiting at +/- 7.5k.

For most missions, this is OK, but for those with lots of opposition cruisers, or those with 1+ BS, I have a heck of a time.

I'm trying to work on a fit with < Tech II modules that can reasonably compete at this level.

Just to clarify--comping Tech I vs Tech II is meaningless? Ie, there are multipliers hidden in advanced skill levels and special ammo types?

Thanks again!
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-07-06 05:56:13 UTC
tech 2 mods have generally higher stats and are affected by the extra skills required to use them.

For example the skill: Medium Autocannon Specialisation increases the damage of tech 2 medium autocannons by 2% per level and ONLY tech 2 medium autocannons. You are required to have at least 1 point in Medium Autocannon Specialisation to use tech 2 medium autocannons.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#10 - 2013-07-06 15:23:45 UTC
ybcuz wrote:
Just to clarify--comping Tech I vs Tech II is meaningless? Ie, there are multipliers hidden in advanced skill levels and special ammo types?


I wouldn't say it's "meaningless", but you do have to know what you're doing -- and yes, that involves accounting for the spec skills and T2 ammo types.

As a general rule, T2 guns are simply the best guns out there in common usage. They have the same paper stats as meta 4 guns (in the case of ACs, 'Scout' variations) but the T2s are harder to fit. What you don't see in there are the spec skills, which actually make T2 guns better than anything except officer guns, and officer guns a) are stupid to use, b) still can't use T2 ammo, and c) don't come in medium variations anyhow.

So yeah. There's a reason everyone uses T2 guns. Meta 4 guns are nearly as good -- but still not quite there. Doubly so when you have really great T2 ammo types (Scorch, Barrage, etc).
Sun Win
#11 - 2013-07-06 15:48:31 UTC
Just to add to the confusion: there are reasons to still fit the T2 180s even though the T2 220s are better for damage etc in all the ways that previous posters have indicated.

For one thing, the lower requirements give you more room for other modules that have high power grid needs like shield extenders and MWDs. More relevantly, the 180s have better tracking, which comes into play when you are orbiting your target at speed. So in some circumstances the net DPS of the 180s outperforms the 220s.

Backing up to your first price question, generally in Eve linear increases in effectiveness are linked with exponential increases in cost. Older, richer and more skilled players have access to better stuff than new players but it's not *that much* better.
ybcuz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-07-06 23:43:40 UTC
I really appreciate all the information everyone--definitely helping me pick a sensible approach to flying what are currently fairly difficult missions for me.

Also, @Sun Win, I appreciate your observation about the economy. It didn't occur to me initially, but since you mentioned it, I can see it everywhere, across almost all classes of merchandise.
SidtheKid100
Aurora.
OnlyFleets.
#13 - 2013-07-07 02:44:57 UTC
ybcuz wrote:
I really appreciate all the information everyone--definitely helping me pick a sensible approach to flying what are currently fairly difficult missions for me.

Also, @Sun Win, I appreciate your observation about the economy. It didn't occur to me initially, but since you mentioned it, I can see it everywhere, across almost all classes of merchandise.



Sounds like you learned a lot in this thread.
Can we declare OP success?

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I prefer posting with my main.

Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-07-07 09:09:51 UTC
T2 Ammo also isn't something to overlook. Scorch, Barrage, and Null all make a huge difference in the ability of close-ranged ships to project damage. I'd honestly go so far as to say that quite a few ship types really don't function without it (ie, a kiting Stabber without Barrage or a Talos without Null),
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-07-07 09:43:07 UTC
real men use 425s

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-07-07 21:19:57 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
really gay men use 425s



Did I just read that
ybcuz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-07-10 02:29:03 UTC
@Voyager Arran - I'll look more closely at T2 ammo types. I imagine they're much more distinguished than what I'm using now.

I still have a bit of training to do, but Gunnery is definitely what I'm dumping my SP into now, so hopefully it won't be too long.
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-07-10 03:19:11 UTC
The actual reason you're having trouble is that you're comparing a Dual 180mm AC II on the market to a 220mm Vulcan AC I on your ship.

The stats for the one on your ship are shown with skills, hull bonuses, and damage/tracking/range mods taken into account. Stats for a gun on the market are not. If you look at a 220mm Vulcan AC I on the market you'll find its base stats are dramatically inferior to the 180mm AC II, as expected.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-07-10 06:10:18 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
really gay men use 425s

Did I just read that

I'm not kidding.
If you can fit them, use them.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout