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Current Flaws of the Wardec Mechanic and Highsec Space

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Akatenshi Xi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-02-04 09:42:24 UTC
Why not just get rid of war decs period. Then you won't have anything to ***** about. Make high sec a safe zone, make it so that if you are one race, its a bit more difficult to another race's space, like you could get concorded for entering the space of another race that doesn't like your race. This would make their ''sandbox'' a little bit smaller, and it would also spawn more trade hubs in the game in the respective racial spaces. I can hear the Jita tears already.

Low sec, null, and wormhole space is for fighting. High sec is controlled by the major races in EVE. Realistically I don't think their militaries, police, and the all knowing concord would allow such crap to really go on. It is a risk to citizens in general, that enough would put a stop to it, not to mention the dozens of other reasons why this wouldn't truly go on, period.

This would give newer players a CHOICE if they want to go PVP or not. Nothing is worse than a newbie corp getting war dec'd by griefers and it destroying their game experience right out of the box. Nothing is worse than station faggotry. You want to be a big boy, shoot people in the face, and PVP. Go do it in law less space then? Where you actually have to have allies and blues. Where your mouth really does need some backup, instead of picking on defenseless 10 man newbie corps in high sec?

My God. Low, Null, And Wormhole space might get a boost of life out of this. Null sec won't be so dead except for CTA meet up points anymore.
Myxx
The Scope
#62 - 2012-02-04 10:03:22 UTC
Llyona wrote:
Myxx wrote:

This is exactly the mindset I'd like to eradicate.


Well ain't that swell? I mean, for a minute there I thought you might be mature enough to realize that it's okay for people to disagree with you.

You twist my words to suggest that I think everyone ever should agree with me. I would be sad if this were the case, I thrive on disagreeing with others. If we all agreed on everything, it would be boring as hell.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
A great topic.

Ban NPC corps.
Make individuals wardecable.
Then have it so each subsequent corp/alliance hop increases the time it takes to join another corp/alliance on an exponential scale within the timespan of, say, a month. In the interim, you're on your own.


This could suffice for a lot of the problems, might need a few tweaks for costs and other such things for example one person versus entire alliances, etc.

Akatenshi Xi wrote:
Why not just get rid of war decs period. Then you won't have anything to ***** about. Make high sec a safe zone, make it so that if you are one race, its a bit more difficult to another race's space, like you could get concorded for entering the space of another race that doesn't like your race. This would make their ''sandbox'' a little bit smaller, and it would also spawn more trade hubs in the game in the respective racial spaces. I can hear the Jita tears already.

Low sec, null, and wormhole space is for fighting. High sec is controlled by the major races in EVE. Realistically I don't think their militaries, police, and the all knowing concord would allow such crap to really go on. It is a risk to citizens in general, that enough would put a stop to it, not to mention the dozens of other reasons why this wouldn't truly go on, period.

This would give newer players a CHOICE if they want to go PVP or not. Nothing is worse than a newbie corp getting war dec'd by griefers and it destroying their game experience right out of the box. Nothing is worse than station faggotry. You want to be a big boy, shoot people in the face, and PVP. Go do it in law less space then? Where you actually have to have allies and blues. Where your mouth really does need some backup, instead of picking on defenseless 10 man newbie corps in high sec?

My God. Low, Null, And Wormhole space might get a boost of life out of this. Null sec won't be so dead except for CTA meet up points anymore.

I disagree with you on a fundamental level about your opinion on highsec and think its a crappy idea without merit save to make people who want no risk whatsoever in EVE. That, imo, is bad.
Pasheer Herrick
Legion of Denali Knights
#63 - 2012-02-04 10:54:59 UTC
Risk in eve should work both ways. What risk is there in a griefer corp war decking a high sec noob corp? I know the pvp minded players always win this argument because it's always easier to act like you are tough, than actually be tough. Low/Null sec is the proving grounds for the "tough".
I am not tough and know it. Why does somebody else have to make me prove it?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#64 - 2012-02-04 10:57:36 UTC
Akatenshi Xi wrote:
Why not just get rid of war decs period. Then you won't have anything to ***** about. Make high sec a safe zone, make it so that if you are one race, its a bit more difficult to another race's space, like you could get concorded for entering the space of another race that doesn't like your race. This would make their ''sandbox'' a little bit smaller, and it would also spawn more trade hubs in the game in the respective racial spaces. I can hear the Jita tears already.

Low sec, null, and wormhole space is for fighting. High sec is controlled by the major races in EVE. Realistically I don't think their militaries, police, and the all knowing concord would allow such crap to really go on. It is a risk to citizens in general, that enough would put a stop to it, not to mention the dozens of other reasons why this wouldn't truly go on, period.

This would give newer players a CHOICE if they want to go PVP or not. Nothing is worse than a newbie corp getting war dec'd by griefers and it destroying their game experience right out of the box. Nothing is worse than station faggotry. You want to be a big boy, shoot people in the face, and PVP. Go do it in law less space then? Where you actually have to have allies and blues. Where your mouth really does need some backup, instead of picking on defenseless 10 man newbie corps in high sec?

My God. Low, Null, And Wormhole space might get a boost of life out of this. Null sec won't be so dead except for CTA meet up points anymore.
Oh god no. You've completely missed the point of Eve, that no where is safe. Safer yes, but not safe.
This is not and never will be a wow 'easy mode' game and it's been designed that way from the start.

You should be aware if you are not by now, that you consent to PvP as soon as you log into Eve. Eve is PvP centric and and you'll be hard pressed to name many things within the game, that are not PvP.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
#65 - 2012-02-04 12:36:07 UTC
I agree wars need a re-work. I don't fully agree with all of your reasoning though and the underlying 'useless' bit.. but the point is that I agree that wars need a re-design.

Here are my reasons why high-sec wars are useful:

  • Ability to pew pew the uneducated and unprepared
  • Ability to demoralize an opponent
  • Ability to disrupt the industrial backbone of a corporation
  • Ability to slowly erode the member base of a corporation due to fear of attack


Here are my reasons why I think the entire war-system needs to be redesigned:

  • The current mechanics allow for evasion while keeping the entity intact (alliance hopping, artificial cost increases)
  • Corporate level outgoing wars is too limited.
  • The price difference between declaring war on an alliance feels backwards (Should cost more to dec a 'solo' corp than an alliance, IMO)
  • Neutral support in high sec wars is too simple to perform (Being fleeted with someone in a war should make you a legal target, IMO. This would balance neutral support by removing their 'warp-to' ability and watch list ability if they want to remain 'un-touchable' until the fight starts.)


Here's what I think needs to be done...
First and foremost, I think the existing war system needs to be trashed. Second, a new system should be added, for the sake of description I'll call this the "Declaration" system. Declarations would be available at both a corporate level, and alliance level. A new tab would be added to the show info window for both corps and alliances. Any and all declarations will be public, and thus viewable in the declarations tab of the show info window. (This would streamline checking if someone is currently at war).

Now, the Declarations system wouldn't just be for war decs. I'm sure some people here know about a lot of players pushing the ability to have Treaties in the past. This system would be somewhat of a 'hub' for those types of agreements. Here is the type of things that I would like to see as part of the Declarations system:

  • Declarations of War (with revised mechanics/costs... as previously stated, any neutrals who fleet with a war target are marked as a legal target.)
  • Declarations of Hostility (essentially a public, and open way of stating that your corporation will kill on sight the individuals or entities in which it has Declared Hostility towards.)
  • Non-Aggression Pacts (For groups that would like to agree not to kill each other)
  • Treaties (Agreements not to kill/destroy certain objects/ships or occupy certain territory)
  • The terms of a declaration are publicly viewable.

The above list is just a taste of the things you can add to a Declarations system.

Here are some things that would be useful in a Treaty/NAP Declaration:

  • Ability to prohibit (but NOT prevent) placement of deployed assets (anchored can, bubble, POS, Outpost etc) in specific systems, constellations or regions.
  • Ability to prohibit (but NOT prevent) entry into specific systems, constellations or regions.
  • Ability to restrict (but NOT prevent) the type of ships (Industrial, Combat, Exploration/Scout) that can, or cannot be attacked and the ability to specify what systems they can or cannot be killed in.
  • Ability for all CEO's, Directors and Diplomats to see a log of all violations of a treaty/nap. (Access to alliance level logs would require the same roles. Access to the log would be available to all members of an alliance with the proper role in their respective corporation with no over-sight or management needed at the executor level.)


In conclusion:

Basically what this system would allow is for a more robust and elegant solution to spread information both publicly and internally about agreements with other groups. Hell, an internal agreement system could be added to allow alliances to have agreements on who can do what where just inside the alliance (and not publicly viewable) so you could allow for all kinds of fun stuff.

Anyways, that's my two cents. If it gets enough likes I'll move it into it's own thread and with enough feedback into the assembly hall.

It wont let me have an empty signature...
Akatenshi Xi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-02-04 16:19:32 UTC
Yeah I don't think a couple of you actually catch the point.

EVE is not safe, anyone can get suicide ganked. The main point of this is make high sec more like low/null sec or kill war decs altogether because honestly it doesn't make sense.

Why?

Lets see you go to war with your neighbor. Eventually the cops are taking you to prison and soon as you start to get noticed that you are actively making your area unsafe.

Same thing in eve. You are in HIGH security space. I don't think the racial house NAVY and POLICE are going to let you endanger citizens, nor is concord. It simply -wouldn't- happen.

Why else?

Noob players need a safe area to play in. To get their bearings, to learn the mechanics of the game, to train skills, to make some isk to actually fund themselves, all sorts of reasons, and yes, some players in EVE have no interest in PVP. Sorry, but not *everyone* wants to be a mindless CTA whore like you, or sit on a gate all night drinking beers on a Friday night with the ''nerds''.

Simply put, make high sec how it realistically should be, and help support newer players LEARN the game or just make is law less space.

Seriously though, do you think you are the s*** by war dec'ing noobs? War dec'ing people who don't pvp? Is that s*** funny to you? Do you get off on that? Exactly my point. Why don't you go down to null, low, or wormhole space to go PVP. Or did you not pack your nuts today?
Myxx
The Scope
#67 - 2012-02-04 19:46:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Akatenshi Xi wrote:
Yeah I don't think a couple of you actually catch the point.

EVE is not safe, anyone can get suicide ganked. The main point of this is make high sec more like low/null sec or kill war decs altogether because honestly it doesn't make sense.

Why?

Lets see you go to war with your neighbor. Eventually the cops are taking you to prison and soon as you start to get noticed that you are actively making your area unsafe.

Same thing in eve. You are in HIGH security space. I don't think the racial house NAVY and POLICE are going to let you endanger citizens, nor is concord. It simply -wouldn't- happen.

Why else?

Noob players need a safe area to play in. To get their bearings, to learn the mechanics of the game, to train skills, to make some isk to actually fund themselves, all sorts of reasons, and yes, some players in EVE have no interest in PVP. Sorry, but not *everyone* wants to be a mindless CTA ***** like you, or sit on a gate all night drinking beers on a Friday night with the ''nerds''.

Simply put, make high sec how it realistically should be, and help support newer players LEARN the game or just make is law less space.

Seriously though, do you think you are the s*** by war dec'ing noobs? War dec'ing people who don't pvp? Is that s*** funny to you? Do you get off on that? Exactly my point. Why don't you go down to null, low, or wormhole space to go PVP. Or did you not pack your nuts today?



You want to protect new players in the name of helping them learn about the game. The truth of it is that by coddling and protecting them with a shield to disallow PVP, you actually cause them more harm and do them a disservice. This hurts them far more than any wardec will ever be capable of by shrouding them in ignorance of combat mechanics outside of PVE. Also your implication that I'm a bad person IRL because I've done harm to others in highsec is flawed at a basic level.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#68 - 2012-02-04 20:02:00 UTC
Akatenshi Xi wrote:
Seriously though, do you think you are the s*** by war dec'ing noobs? War dec'ing people who don't pvp? Is that s*** funny to you? Do you get off on that? Exactly my point. Why don't you go down to null, low, or wormhole space to go PVP. Or did you not pack your nuts today?
Ahh at last, your true colours show through.

You may think your sitting on that morality high ground right now, but you quite simply fail to grasp Eve and it's PvP centric nature.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2012-02-04 22:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Pasheer Herrick wrote:
Risk in eve should work both ways. What risk is there in a griefer corp war decking a high sec noob corp? I know the pvp minded players always win this argument because it's always easier to act like you are tough, than actually be tough. Low/Null sec is the proving grounds for the "tough".
I am not tough and know it. Why does somebody else have to make me prove it?

The big reason high sec noob corps get war dec'd all the time, and not the guy autopiloting his cargo-laden freighter alone 23/7 or the 1-man research alt with a POS in highsec containing BPOs is that the highsec noob corp doesn't yet know how to evade PvP and wardecs effectively. They aren't like the griefer corp who, as the second post in this thread pointed out, can safely ensconce their own PvE assets in an alt corp that is easily dec-shielded (why would they risk their PvE assets) or in an NPC corp.

Unlike what I think you're assuming, this thread is not about forcing PvP on newbies. As you point out, that already happens plenty. It's about pressing PvP on non-newbies, the people who should be expected to actively defend their assets but don't have to, so they choose not to; in the process causing huge problems in the risk/reward aspect of EVE as a game and trivializing/devaluing industry and logistics for people of all sec-status.

Removing stuff like NPC corps and dec shields takes the pressure off newbies by putting players on an equal playing field, incentivising going after the biggest target,instead of incentivising going after the players least likely to immediately drop corp/alliance or hide in an NPC corp.
McOboe
Viscosity
#70 - 2012-02-05 02:05:23 UTC
It was noted recently that my proposals are usually too complicated, so I'll focus on simple fixes.

High-sec needs to be made less appealing. As noted by Ismaus above, there's too much ISK without enough risk. I have several ideas that could improve this situation.

#1- Halve manufacture/research/copy/invention slots in high-sec stations. In addition, reduce the refine rate in high-sec. Instead, boost refine rates in low-sec and increase manufacture/research/copy/invention slots in low-sec stations. Justification- NPC competition has consumed available slots and degraded refineries in high-sec.

#2- Massively increase the costs of market transactions in high-sec. Keep the costs low in low-sec/null-sec. Again, NPC competition and Empire greed.

#3- Veldspar only in 0.5 and up. Boost low-sec ores spawns. No ice in high-sec as well. Again, NPC competition.

#4- Move L4 missions to low-sec. L1-L3 would stay in high-sec (for the most part). Justification- the Empires have been able to solve all L4-type problems in high-sec.

#5- POSes, regardless of system security status, can be shot at as if they were a wreck or can. Meaning, you shoot at it, and the POS and owners can shoot back. Essentially, all POSes are assailable at all times. Justification- it's a resource- defend it.

#6- Throw Faction Warfare a bone. Basically, that POSes in high-sec can only be owned/operated by Faction Warfare participants. I mean really, why would an Empire allow a corp to set up a POS in their space unless they essentially worked for them? This could potentially modify rule #5, in that only a faction could shoot at POSes of the opposing faction.

#7- Remove the entire war-dec system. Just throw it in the trash. Don't revive it.

#8- CONCORD/suicide-ganking mechanics otherwise stay the same.

#9- Want to PvP? Suicide-gank, can-bait/flip, or move to low/null/hole. Or, JOIN FACTION WARFARE.

High-sec would be far less profitable. The incentives to push to low/null would increase. No war-dec issues, as they wouldn't exist. Farming L4s would have a better ISK/risk ratio. Mining would have a better ISK/risk ratio. No more semi-invulnerable POSes. It wouldn't solve station-games, but as another person said- don't play them.
Ernst Volckheim
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-02-05 03:07:08 UTC
You want a system that makes it easier to hang around in high sec and war dec newbie corps.


If you want to PVP you move to low sec or 0.0.


If you want PVP then grow a pair and move out where the big boys play.


If it were my decision there would be no PVP whatsoever allowed in high sec.


Allow the new players to learn to play before you start blockading them in their stations. Some of them will eventually grow some nads and move to low/null sec.

Something you have not yet done.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-02-05 04:15:23 UTC
Ernst Volckheim wrote:
If it were my decision there would be no PVP whatsoever allowed in high sec.

Seeing as high sec players are allowed to participate in the player-run economy and thus engage in market PvP that effects the in game world, the best way of doing that would be disable any currency transactions or item transfers in highsec.
Ernst Volckheim
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-02-05 06:40:10 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ernst Volckheim wrote:
If it were my decision there would be no PVP whatsoever allowed in high sec.

Seeing as high sec players are allowed to participate in the player-run economy and thus engage in market PvP that effects the in game world, the best way of doing that would be disable any currency transactions or item transfers in highsec.


When I say PvP I mean Player versus Player combat and I am pretty certain you knew that.

It is pointless to argue this topic anyway.

CCP could make hign sec a "No pvp combat" zone and the game would grow. They have decided they like being a tiny little niche market in the gaming community. Good for them.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#74 - 2012-02-05 07:13:32 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ernst Volckheim wrote:
If it were my decision there would be no PVP whatsoever allowed in high sec.

Seeing as high sec players are allowed to participate in the player-run economy and thus engage in market PvP that effects the in game world, the best way of doing that would be disable any currency transactions or item transfers in highsec.


Nicolo has the crux of the matter. If you really want 100% safe PvE it should have zero effect on the rest of the game. For example missions that reward no ISK, minerals, or Mods or anything that impacts the rest of the game world. Could be a new currency to buy equipment that only functions in those 100% safe PvE missions. I'm not advocating this, only stating that given the nature of EVE that would be the only fair and balanced way to implement 100% safe PvE in EVE.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2012-02-05 07:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Ernst Volckheim wrote:
CCP could make hign sec a "No pvp combat" zone and the game would grow.

Funny though that the game has only shown growth when additional venues of PvP were added (Apocrypha, Dominion, Crucible), and when additions centered around more forms of riskfree income generation appeared (Tyrannis, Incursion) were made, EVE nearly died.

I'd say it's that most players play this game for reasons beyond seeing a wallet blink; they play to be challenged, something that mining and level 4 missions do not offer.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#76 - 2012-02-05 07:41:31 UTC
Ernst Volckheim wrote:
You want a system that makes it easier to hang around in high sec and war dec newbie corps.


If you want to PVP you move to low sec or 0.0.


If you want PVP then grow a pair and move out where the big boys play.


If it were my decision there would be no PVP whatsoever allowed in high sec.


Allow the new players to learn to play before you start blockading them in their stations. Some of them will eventually grow some nads and move to low/null sec.

Something you have not yet done.

Why do you even continue to play, when this game is so obviously not for you?

Your take on how the game should become, goes against everything that game is designed to be from day one. CCP and the majority or players, revel the fact that anyone can be shot and killed any where, any time. CCP have also stated, that they believe life is now too safe in Eve.

So not only is your horrendous vision of Eve never going to happen, the exact opposite is most likely.

All your little personal judgements on peoples characters, only act like a mirror and give everyone else insight into yours.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.