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CCP! Please clarify the future plans for WiS!

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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#4221 - 2012-04-09 17:51:27 UTC
Now let me say one thing.

Eve isnt dying becuase it doesnt have WiS.
Its just not growing as fast...

I have to agree with some sentiments on the other side.
Too much resources and time was spent for what little we got.

However... Lets not throw away what they got done. That would be like throwing out all the medical research that communist and socialist countries performed on living people. True the people behind the experiments where ill intentioned, but the things they've learned are saving people's lives. Throwing it all away is just further insult to all those who where removed to bring you this basis to build off of.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
bornaa
GRiD.
#4222 - 2012-04-09 17:54:36 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:

"eve is dying because there is no wis", "i am unsubbing because there's no wis",
sounds like wis-at-all-cost
but eve is not dying, why rush wis? just let them get it right, they did botch it the first time.

Sounds like they want WiS content added to the game, nowhere did they say 'WiS at all costs'.

As for your statement about WiS being botched the first time, it was the Incarna expansion that was botched and I'm not going to state all the problems associated with it again. The main problem with the WiS delivered in the Incarna expansion was that it didn't include the Ambulation that was promised to players years ago.


You wanted to say this: (its funny how many times we need to quote you Lol)

DeMichael Crimson wrote:


So you're still spouting the same ole lies. WiS was not the reason for the mass unsubs.

The Incarna Expansion failed to deliver the WiS that was promised years ago known as Ambulation. The Incarna Expansion was the catalyst which combined with resulting events and previous in-game problems ended up being 'The straw that broke the Camel's back'.

Those mass unsubs were due to a lot of different things listed here in no particular order.

The 1001 Papercuts thread - large list of various broken game mechanics and unfinished content since 2003.
Numerous expansions constantly being rushed out 1/2 finished and bugged breaking existing content.
CCP introducing NEX Store and MT - selling overpriced items for real money bypassing player production.
Threat of 'Gold Ammo' and 'Gold Ships' enabling 'Pay to Win' exploitation.
CCP dividing development resources working on 3 different projects at same time.
The leaked memo 'Fearless Newsletter' - Greed is good.
CCP statement of Eve Online viewed as the Golden Goose.
Forcing 3rd party programs to pay real money for providing Eve Online applications.
CCP failure to maintain promise of 'Commitment to Excellence'.
Showing players 'The Door' and removing option of choice, forced participation.
CCP attempting to diffuse the situation with excessive thread locking and banned accounts.
Lack of communication resulting in poor Public Relations due to ignoring the player base.
Releasing poorly written unoptimized code in a major expansion resulting in client side issues.
Hilmar's statement - "Watch what they do, not what they say."

Basically Hilmar's statement became the rally cry for the mass unsubs. Those unsubs combined with a large loan payment being due resulted in CCP downsizing and placing some of their other projects on the back burner.

Ladie Harlot wrote:
Captains Quarters are inside the station and you can walk in them (at least until your video card catches fire). Was that worth two years of Eve being neglected?

Strange, I had a 10 year old computer with minimum required specs and I was able to have CQ active. Granted it took a while to load up and was very laggy. Of course this was when CCP had first introduced CQ which has been optimized now so if your Video Card is catching on fire, then you'd better get a new computer.

By the way, I've seen a lot of different game play content added in the past 3 1/2 years I've been playing this game. Please explain how 2 years of Eve has been neglected?
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
bornaa
GRiD.
#4223 - 2012-04-09 18:00:20 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Now let me say one thing.

Eve isnt dying becuase it doesnt have WiS.
Its just not growing as fast...

I have to agree with some sentiments on the other side.
Too much resources and time was spent for what little we got.

However... Lets not throw away what they got done. That would be like throwing out all the medical research that communist and socialist countries performed on living people. True the people behind the experiments where ill intentioned, but the things they've learned are saving people's lives. Throwing it all away is just further insult to all those who where removed to bring you this basis to build off of.


Ill quote one guy for you too:

Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:

You allways forget one thing.
That 18 months was for carbonization of EVE.
That's what majority of EVE DEVs worked on.
Just look at how much of EVE code was rewritten and pushed out after that "18 months". You can see numerous bugs that appeared in all things that worked before and on the first look that did not seem like they touched it. You can see it that after "Incarna" list of CCPs technologies appeared on CCP web page all named with "Carbon" prefix. You can see it in tests of many "Carbon" things and putting it in game, like UI, like inventory, and stuff like that.
They had to rewrite 8 years of old messy python code and rewrite it in C on all crucial parts of the game because it take 10 times more time for new programmers to find head and tale in that code and to implement something.

You see how they can magically change many things over night that they could not before???
Yea, thats because of it.

Their error was that they did not tell that to player base, maybe because some ppl would quit Roll.

In that time one part of the staff worked on WiS (majority of designers) and they just didn't have time to make WiS and create what they advertise.

So please don't tell me they worked on WiS all that much.
In 2 years (after pre production) you can make all new game from nothing.
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4224 - 2012-04-09 18:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Soulpirate
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:

"eve is dying because there is no wis", "i am unsubbing because there's no wis",
sounds like wis-at-all-cost
but eve is not dying, why rush wis? just let them get it right, they did botch it the first time.

Sounds like they want WiS content added to the game, nowhere did they say 'WiS at all costs'.

As for your statement about WiS being botched the first time, it was the Incarna expansion that was botched and I'm not going to state all the problems associated with it again. The main problem with the WiS delivered in the Incarna expansion was that it didn't include the Ambulation that was promised to players years ago.


Truth.

The part that gets me is they stated that there were assests ready and coming in the next patches, but then all the drama started happening so they backed off. If common areas are built they should release them now, even if there is a promonade with a bunch of "coming soon" banners on all the shop windows, atleast it wouldn't feel as claustrophobic whilke we wait for gameplay elements to be added.

I think they misunderstood what people were upset about, we didn't NOT want more, we were upset we didnt get more for the time they put in. If there are more areas ready for release they should release them now.

If we waited for any part of EVE to be "completed" before it was released, EVE wouldn't be released yet.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4225 - 2012-04-09 18:05:39 UTC
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#4226 - 2012-04-09 18:06:15 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Now let me say one thing.
Ill quote one guy for you too:

Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:

You allways forget one thing.
That 18 months was for carbonization of EVE.
That's what majority of EVE DEVs worked on.
Just look at how much of EVE code was rewritten and pushed out after that "18 months". You can see numerous bugs that appeared in all things that worked before and on the first look that did not seem like they touched it. You can see it that after "Incarna" list of CCPs technologies appeared on CCP web page all named with "Carbon" prefix. You can see it in tests of many "Carbon" things and putting it in game, like UI, like inventory, and stuff like that.
They had to rewrite 8 years of old messy python code and rewrite it in C on all crucial parts of the game because it take 10 times more time for new programmers to find head and tale in that code and to implement something.

You see how they can magically change many things over night that they could not before???
Yea, thats because of it.

Their error was that they did not tell that to player base, maybe because some ppl would quit Roll.

In that time one part of the staff worked on WiS (majority of designers) and they just didn't have time to make WiS and create what they advertise.

So please don't tell me they worked on WiS all that much.
In 2 years (after pre production) you can make all new game from nothing.


If you look back far enough you'll see me stating the same thing. They overdrove carbon which was a desperate need but as you see its still not complete (destiney the last big gorillia in the closet) as well as other out of carbon but unmarried to the new idea coding such as the wardec system which is now getting revamped for future infrastructure and crimewatch.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#4227 - 2012-04-09 18:40:27 UTC
Soulpirate wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:

"eve is dying because there is no wis", "i am unsubbing because there's no wis",
sounds like wis-at-all-cost
but eve is not dying, why rush wis? just let them get it right, they did botch it the first time.

Sounds like they want WiS content added to the game, nowhere did they say 'WiS at all costs'.

As for your statement about WiS being botched the first time, it was the Incarna expansion that was botched and I'm not going to state all the problems associated with it again. The main problem with the WiS delivered in the Incarna expansion was that it didn't include the Ambulation that was promised to players years ago.


Truth.

The part that gets me is they stated that there were assests ready and coming in the next patches, but then all the drama started happening so they backed off. If common areas are built they should release them now, even if there is a promonade with a bunch of "coming soon" banners on all the shop windows, atleast it wouldn't feel as claustrophobic whilke we wait for gameplay elements to be added.

I think they misunderstood what people were upset about, we didn't NOT want more, we were upset we didnt get more for the time they put in. If there are more areas ready for release they should release them now.

If we waited for any part of EVE to be "completed" before it was released, EVE wouldn't be released yet.


Well, that part of the "undelivered stuff" is a funny one.FAi, they're busy finishing sleeve tattos (which are like "meh" to many players), and meanwhile there's over a hundred undelivered NEx items rotting at Sisi and TQ market tabs... all in working order and waiting only that someone puts a sensible price tag on them and throws that bone to WiSers.

And I almost choke myself when I saw at the presentation a sleeve tattoo on a female avatar wearing a "Structure" dress, an item which has been unreleased since Incarna. Lol
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#4228 - 2012-04-09 18:51:23 UTC
Well they're adding in race blending as well.

Crossbreeding.

NEX 2.0 will need a better iteration maybe after they get done v'3ing everything or maybe its a surprize feature in inferno who knows. If anything I would love to see tailor make it in as a wis mini profession. research color materials cuts and wear and sell copies for dirt cheaper sell pernament contracts for a bit more.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#4229 - 2012-04-09 19:07:50 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Well they're adding in race blending as well.

Crossbreeding.

NEX 2.0 will need a better iteration maybe after they get done v'3ing everything or maybe its a surprize feature in inferno who knows. If anything I would love to see tailor make it in as a wis mini profession. research color materials cuts and wear and sell copies for dirt cheaper sell pernament contracts for a bit more.


Oh yes, race blending (I somehow guess that we won't be allowed to have less than 50% of our original race, BTW). And also Escalation should see better complexion customization.

Those are little iterations, but as the three racial CQ or sleeve tattos or the completely forgotten and ignored full body preview, this are things already "on the pipe" since Incarna.

The rest of jobs undertaken by our A-Team are not to be seen any soon, and as far as we know they couldn't even be related to EVE... "CCP plans avatar gameplay" could mean anything. Lol
Panacani
Doomheim
#4230 - 2012-04-09 19:09:21 UTC
Perhaps there should be an optional subscription add-on for key areas of the game. A person could assign an additional $50 (tiered somehow) a month toward specific game features (Wis/Incursions/Sovereignty/Industry/Etc).

These additional charges could be applied directly to the budgets of Wis, Fis, Industry, Incursions etc depending on how the subscriber assigns their additional charges.

I think CCP would find that there is more support for Wis than these nutty forums suggest.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4231 - 2012-04-09 19:14:29 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Now let me say one thing.

Eve isnt dying becuase it doesnt have WiS.
Its just not growing as fast...

I have to agree with some sentiments on the other side.
Too much resources and time was spent for what little we got.

However... Lets not throw away what they got done. That would be like throwing out all the medical research that communist and socialist countries performed on living people. True the people behind the experiments where ill intentioned, but the things they've learned are saving people's lives. Throwing it all away is just further insult to all those who where removed to bring you this basis to build off of.

Absolutely. For all the time and resources that were devoted to WiS, it should have been a full blown, polished and finished product when Incarna was released. At the same time though, throwing away all that work is an equally supid move. It is good that they are taking a step back to re-asses the gameplay and what is needed to make WiS work properly within EvE. What needs to be done at this point is for a solid idea and direction to be decided on and when the time is appropriate, move on and finish it.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#4232 - 2012-04-09 20:12:31 UTC
HELIC0N ONE wrote:
[..]CCP haven't said that 'social gameplay isn't gameplay'[..]
Even if the technology allows it, dumping a dozen avatars in an Incarna bar with nothing for them to do and relying on Space Magic to make emergent gameplay happen out of thin air is foolishness.

Hmm, I hope you are right and that I am strawmanning, but some things said and the "re-eveluation" of avatar gameplay, including rethinking bars etc. because they supposedly lack gameplay (and perhaps I am wrong and no such things were ever said, but it's what I read between the lines anyway)... it puzzles me, let's just keep it at that.

I, by the way, have dumped myself in a EVE dance club RP chat channel with 6-10 players, and the experiences I had there were among the best I've ever had in EVE. If this can happen in a chat channel, I see no reason why this can't happen in a virtual bar "with nothing for them to do".
As I said, this is not for everyone, but for me it would go a long way towards seeing some of what I wanted from Incarna.
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
I wonder how many players are like you, with the "since there is no wis there is no reason for me to play eve" situation. Makes one wonder why you got started in this game in the first place.[..]

When I started playing EVE years ago, I was promised WiS. I've been waiting patiently for years, and just as I was about to see my most desired expansion, they break the promise, and the disillusion that followed made EVE taste somewhat bitter. Even though EVE is still a good game, it reminds me of dissappointment, and I haven't played the game for months. I think I may be starting to get an itch though...

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#4233 - 2012-04-10 01:11:12 UTC
Now let me say one thing.

Eve isnt dying becuase it doesnt have FiS.
Its just not growing as fast...

I have to agree with some sentiments on the other side.
Too much resources and time was spent for what little we got.

However... Lets not throw away what they got done. That would be like throwing out all the medical research that communist and socialist countries performed on living people. True the people behind the experiments where ill intentioned, but the things they've learned are saving people's lives. Throwing it all away is just further insult to all those who where removed to bring you this basis to build off of.

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#4234 - 2012-04-10 01:24:46 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

and meanwhile there's over a hundred undelivered NEx items rotting at Sisi and TQ market tabs


let it rot imo; the longer CCP thinks we dont want the NeX the longer we put off Gold ammo

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Yoma Karima
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4235 - 2012-04-10 01:29:24 UTC
Richard Hammond II wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

and meanwhile there's over a hundred undelivered NEx items rotting at Sisi and TQ market tabs


let it rot imo; the longer CCP thinks we dont want the NeX the longer we put off Gold ammo


If you don't like NEX don't use it. See how simple that is?

Those who wish to end War wish to end what it means to be human. Those who advocate War do not know its power. Yet Those who learn from War will be remembered for all time.
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#4236 - 2012-04-10 01:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Hammond II
Yoma Karima wrote:
Richard Hammond II wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

and meanwhile there's over a hundred undelivered NEx items rotting at Sisi and TQ market tabs


let it rot imo; the longer CCP thinks we dont want the NeX the longer we put off Gold ammo


If you don't like NEX don't use it. See how simple that is?


you want Gold ammo?

Im glad CCP didnt listen to people like you and listened to the ppl that were leaving

I hope they never do either

plenty of games out there for you with p2w schemes, go to them, stop trying to turn this into one

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Yoma Karima
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4237 - 2012-04-10 01:43:45 UTC
Richard Hammond II wrote:
Yoma Karima wrote:
Richard Hammond II wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

and meanwhile there's over a hundred undelivered NEx items rotting at Sisi and TQ market tabs


let it rot imo; the longer CCP thinks we dont want the NeX the longer we put off Gold ammo


If you don't like NEX don't use it. See how simple that is?


you want Gold ammo?

Im glad CCP didnt listen to people like you and listened to the ppl that were leaving

I hope they never do either

plenty of games out there for you with p2w schemes, go to them, stop trying to turn this into one


Never said i wan't Gold ammo first of all(not the best ammo i can think of anyway to malleable), and pay to win is not a good game, ITS the cosmetic transactions we have now witch are harmless.

Those who wish to end War wish to end what it means to be human. Those who advocate War do not know its power. Yet Those who learn from War will be remembered for all time.
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#4238 - 2012-04-10 01:53:43 UTC
Yoma Karima wrote:


Never said i wan't Gold ammo first of all(not the best ammo i can think of anyway to malleable), and pay to win is not a good game, ITS the cosmetic transactions we have now witch are harmless.


Funny thing about cosmetic items for real money... Ive never seen a game where it STAYED cosmetic ONLY
Once the company running it realized the players would pay for things like that.

Back when they put in the cash shop in Star Trek Online, the Devs and Mods all over the forums crowed "VANITY ITEMS ONLY"

yes, I know that game was an abortion and isnt comparible to this one in terms of gameplay (or most anything else) but the example exists in the "VANITY ITEMS ONLY" claims of the ppl making the game.

Not the only game Ive seen this happen in, but its the most obvious one I can think off right now.

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
RAP ACTION HERO
#4239 - 2012-04-10 02:13:29 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
(...)


i am one of the WISlovers here everybody knows that,but hopig that WIS will keep you interested in EVE is wrong.
If you don,t like the game ,some avatar play will not change that.
WIS is nothing more then an addon to EVE ,a great addon ,but nothing more then that.
Wis will add to EVE ,but wil not make you like EVE more as it is.



Huh.

In a deep sense i don't like EVE's premise, that bad guys can be SOBs forever and nobody be safe and nobody bother them or stop them. If I wanted to endure that crap, i just would turn on the TV and tune the news to learn whatever did today my country's politicians. Roll

So, in that sense, I don't like EVE. Hooligans deserve being hanged at crossroads to serve as example, not being cheered while they ask for people to suicide over a videogame, if you get what I mean.

But then, i like MMOs, and EVE is unique. I am sucker for the skill system, the combat system, the economy and the sheer complexity of fitting ships for a task.

I would love that bounty hunting was a viable profession and SOBs got a reason to fear being chased by bounty hunters. I would love that EVE PvP was about either being a SOB and face the consequences or make SOBs face the consequences. Being a SOB for free is not my idea of fun.

If that was impossible (poor PvPrs, they should go harrass non-PvPrs elsewhere), then I would like that EVE was about building and restoring civilization, bringing order into chaos rather than gloat into pointless perpetual mayhem. Colonize planets, set up stargates, whatever.

Failing all above, i just would like to be able to pursue my own goals without being fukked by someone I can't fuk back, and let the universe go to hell while I dig out my own little corner.

And here I enter WiS, occuring in the only places in EVE were your assets are safe unless you willingly jeopardize them (FAI trusting someone and giving him acces to the corporate hangar).

I think you are just risk averse and unfortunately most of eve can't be appealing to you.

vitoc erryday
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#4240 - 2012-04-10 02:17:31 UTC
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:

I think you are just risk averse and unfortunately most of eve can't be appealing to you.


yeah... non pvp WiS is entirely unappealing

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.