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CCP! Please clarify the future plans for WiS!

First post
Author
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2581 - 2012-01-17 12:28:14 UTC
There you go, there are five people working on improving the client and new space pants are on the way. I hope CCP take a serious look at the NeX store prices, they are so out of whack it was a joke and made news in the gaming press for all the wrong reasons. Seeing articles like that can convince potential new players to walk away. If the prices are adjusted to fit the industry averages it will go a long way towards convincing existing players the NeX store isn't a greedy cash grab. Sales might increase too.

@ CCP Bayesian,

I notice you mentioned "gameplay" and its important that Incarna contains something that existing players want to do and looks exciting or enticing enough to bring new players in. The easiest way to do this is combat, people that play games love combat, there is nothing more satisfying than crushing an opponent after a hard fought fight, whether its NPCs or another player. I know asking for FPS in stations or invading an outpost after knocking it out of reinforced probably wouldn't happen.

I cannot imagine the technical issues involved in creating that but I imagine it wouldn't be easy, or cheap. There are fluff and back story issues to that would prevent pod pilots being able to run around with a rifle.

But what about robot fighting? Pod pilots have all these neural links that control starships so why not be able to control robots the same way? Like I said I don't understand the technical issues but maybe the existing game engine could be used to allow robot arena battles. The fluff mentions the Caldari gamble heavily on things like that so it fits the fluff too.

Allow players to build the robot parts and weapons via normal industry and add cosmetic features via the NeX store, so both the players get more market and industry and CCP could sell fancy gold paint jobs and trophies of junked robot parts impaled on spikes and things like that. Instead of flying on all 3 axis the robots could trundle around on tracks and anti grav pads, the arena could have obstacles and hazards to make manoeuvring tactics even more important.

Add 1v1 and 3v3, 5v5 matches and so on, entering a match would cost ISK and the winners take all. Robots would be damaged or destroyed and would need to be replaced or repaired by player industry. Add a PvE mode against "house robots" alongside the PvP and give the players LP as rewards for winning, but make PvE hard and use Sansha/Sleeper AI and limit it so it couldn't be farmed as a PvE income that rivals or exceeds any other PvE income.

Players have been asking for an arena for ages but many argued it would have no place in EVEs unscripted harsh world. Separating the arena from space ships and using robots instead wouldn't replace any existing gameplay with anything controlled or scripted.

It would be a whole new gameplay feature that would rival Incursion or Apocrypha in scope and would give Incarna a real gem in its crown, both for players and potential new players.
Razin
The Scope
#2582 - 2012-01-17 12:29:59 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:


We'll be coming out with more concrete information on what this all entails soonish but fire away with questions.

Glad to hear an EVE feature isn't getting abandoned.

A couple of questions about what's currently on TQ:

1. Do you plan to update the 'clothing simulation'? Because currently clothing looks like it's glued to the body of the avatar. This is especially bad for any top layer clothing that is supposed to hang loose when unbuttoned/unzipped, like jackets, etc.

2. The character creator adds extra shadows across the face when it does the off-line rendering for the portrait. When are you going to fix that?
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2583 - 2012-01-17 12:35:55 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Basically, "our top priority after dealing with defects that are live on TQ is to come up with a solid vision and find the gameplay for future work on a multiplayer Incarna release". From my perspective anything we do has to be compelling and if we can find a compelling gameplay experience in expanding the CQ with multiplayer aspects then that is something we'd definitely look at. We are definitely going to be looking at letting you out of the CQ though as they'd get crowded pretty quickly. ;)


Bolded the bits that you'd expect to have been done at the very beginning of development rather than after 5 years.

(Not your fault personally, Bayesian, but it nicely illustrates just what a mess Incarna has been so far and why so many of us are sceptical about the whole project)

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Xuko Nuki
Heralds of Darkness
White Sky.
#2584 - 2012-01-17 12:50:23 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
There you go, there are five people working on improving the client and new space pants are on the way.


Stopped reading there, you should work on your delivery before you type out a novel.
CCP Bayesian
#2585 - 2012-01-17 13:11:24 UTC
Razin wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:


We'll be coming out with more concrete information on what this all entails soonish but fire away with questions.

Glad to hear an EVE feature isn't getting abandoned.

A couple of questions about what's currently on TQ:

1. Do you plan to update the 'clothing simulation'? Because currently clothing looks like it's glued to the body of the avatar. This is especially bad for any top layer clothing that is supposed to hang loose when unbuttoned/unzipped, like jackets, etc.

2. The character creator adds extra shadows across the face when it does the off-line rendering for the portrait. When are you going to fix that?


1. No plans currently, some parts of the clothing are physically simulated but most moves in a similar way to other games with the character animation. It's a balance between performance and visual fidelity.

2. This should be fixed when Crucible 1.1 goes out.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Praerian
Perkone
Caldari State
#2586 - 2012-01-17 13:30:55 UTC
Just give us corp offices so we can sit and chill and spin avatars during operational downtime with corpies and extra fluff once you can do that.

And allow dusties access so we can mingle with the great unwashed.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2587 - 2012-01-17 14:11:22 UTC
Houm... so "Team avatar" is about one week old... CCP Guard's answer was about one week ago... All after two months ignoring the thread.

I think it's not too far an stretch of imagination to think that "Team avatar" does exist because of this thread.Question
Sirius Cassiopeiae
Perkone
Caldari State
#2588 - 2012-01-17 14:23:52 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Houm... so "Team avatar" is about one week old... CCP Guard's answer was about one week ago... All after two months ignoring the thread.

I think it's not too far an stretch of imagination to think that "Team avatar" does exist because of this thread.Question


Its not stretch at all, its the truth.
Its good thing that WiS once again have its own team, team only for development of WiS.
While i think that 5 ppl is too small number of ppl for WiS team (WiS - thing that will brought EVE on all new level of player experience and gameplay), but its progress.

@ Team Avatar: We love you guys.
Razin
The Scope
#2589 - 2012-01-17 14:36:21 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Razin wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:


We'll be coming out with more concrete information on what this all entails soonish but fire away with questions.

Glad to hear an EVE feature isn't getting abandoned.

A couple of questions about what's currently on TQ:

1. Do you plan to update the 'clothing simulation'? Because currently clothing looks like it's glued to the body of the avatar. This is especially bad for any top layer clothing that is supposed to hang loose when unbuttoned/unzipped, like jackets, etc.

2. The character creator adds extra shadows across the face when it does the off-line rendering for the portrait. When are you going to fix that?


1. No plans currently, some parts of the clothing are physically simulated but most moves in a similar way to other games with the character animation. It's a balance between performance and visual fidelity.

2. This should be fixed when Crucible 1.1 goes out.

Thank you for responding!

Good news on #2 and too bad about #1.
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#2590 - 2012-01-17 15:11:18 UTC
All I want from incarna is a corporate conference room and an alliance presentation room where we could upload powerpoints to show the alliance. If this is done, incarna would be awesome.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#2591 - 2012-01-17 16:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Let's discuss gameplay.


Incarna for me is about immersion. It's about going into the nitty gritty and getting your hands dirty. It's about stepping off your own personal "Millenium Falcon"/"Firefly"/"Normandy" and so on. Although to EVE Veterans, we know our ships come and go - it's that experience that makes it matter for the new player. Get off my ship and I want to see what this Universe is really about. Maybe punch some people in the face. It should have a taste of exploration as well - even on the "stale" spacestations. Those shady back alleys and off grid sites do make it feel tangible.

Really, when I think of Incarna, I think of wanting to be in a Virtual Reality headset and 'becoming' my character by having to DO the things my character does, unlike theme park trash MMOs too many to name. It should be an environment where you have to have the technical player skill to interact with as much as you need to do the same in space - less button clicking more technical challenges.


So, I'm going to give you a little vision.

You undock from your capsule and you head into your CQ, you have some great opportunities to check out your environment and look at some news on the screen (which needs to be expanded on and allowed to be more customizable for me - market tickers, corporation bulletins, planetary bulletins (Dust?), etc). You decide to head out of your quarters...


But why? I mean, if you have to go out of your way, generally, you also expect people to be there. So wherever you're going has to have enough to keep peoples attention that they're interested in staying there for a noticeable amount of time or you'll end up with an empty (and boring) environment. Especially in EVE where there is simply SOOO much space.

At the same time, we WANT some empty spaces. We want places that are public but yet private. The equivalent of a Dark Alley. The biggest challenge is going to be your space stations and not making them ALL THE SAME. But we want some variety. So let's say you divide space stations into various "Districts" - this is purely conjectural of course - and EVE Players, being the awesome deities that they are can INVEST into various districts to promote certain activities. Of course, different people will want different investments prioritized. If you want a "Black Market District" then you - through whatever mechanics make sense - invest into the area (beyond just pressing a button). Perhaps by using establishments you have placed in the district you can promote certain environments to develop.

The station environments should feel less like a modern strip "Mall" and more like an old Arabian "Bazaar". Corners, Alleys, tight spaces, open spaces, etc. Different developments could change the "dirtiness" of the environment, the amount of NPCs that might be around, and so on. So, now you've given players that LIVE in certain places the ability to manipulate their environment and now you're creating opportunity for politics, scheming and so on. Whatever this means is that to get what you want you have to coordinate in some parts, and on the other parts also get into conflict. Can you steal someones establishment? Can you convince them to do what you want? Maybe you're interested in a Black Market that gives certain price advantages to your market, or maybe you're interested in a High Tech district that specializes in increasing manufacturing time, and so on.

Those establishments now become a force that exerts on the space around it. A bar establishment can cater to different types of players through that same mechanic.

But that begs the question... what are establishments run by players like?

If we start with the obvious ones from our real life experiences we can say these are typical establishments you will see :


  • Restaurants (Applicable in EVE, do we need to eat?)
  • Social Establishments (Bars, Lounges, Dance Clubs, etc)
  • Entertainment Establishments (Sports, Gambling, Video Arcades, My Little Pony Rides)
  • Retail Establishments (Selling you Clothing, Food, Starships, etc)
  • Medical Establishments (Hospitals, Space for Medical Professionals, Surgeons, etc)
  • Administrative Establishments (Offices for Corporations, etc)


Trying to think of other options... but we're not very creative as humans I guess as to what you expect from something when you go there. The devil is in the details of those places when we visit.

Now... why would someone want to hang around those kinds of places. In typical MMOs today, you just make a one stop shop at your Medical Dude and you get patched up and then keep running. It's maybe a 30 second affair and hardly a place for social interaction and definitely a BANAL experience of the whole themepark MMO Genre. We all know it takes more than 10 seconds to heal a major injury. And Incarna should NOT be Banal.

Looking at a game like APB (Reloaded) - there's a TON of social customization options... but really NO socialization happens in the "Social" district. The reason is pretty simple... there's no TOOLS for socialization. As humans, whether we hate video games or not, we play games every day while socializing. Ever try to date a girl? (Have to ask around here sometimes...) Oh my gaawwdd the 'games' that are played. Some more fun than others Pirate.

So, why do people want to socialize in EVE? Well a TON of it happens every day. "Help me with this - I need that, etc". Mostly in a text chat buffer or a voice program... but... why bother meeting in person? What can that give me that I can't just hear in someones voice? That is the dilemma for social gameplay in an MMO (all of them).


Continued Below : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=663643#post663643

Where I am.

oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#2592 - 2012-01-17 16:28:13 UTC
thank you CCP Bayesian and of course team Avatar

a small team on WIS is all ,what we have asked for.

i hope you have enough time to go through this thread ,some good ideas are posted here

i know WIS has a long road to go ,but i want to know if CCP still don,t want some aggression in stations
i know its a bit early to ask ,but if more station environments are possible ,some unsafe spots in station ,maybe?
and of course the big screen ,do something with it,maybe a camera-drone outside the station?
A Corproom would be a nice addition,if more rooms are possible in the future
and the pod on the balcony ,pls make it attached to the CQ

R.S.I2014

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2593 - 2012-01-17 16:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Time for some new information on our plans.

Incarna is not dead, it is however on a slight hiatus with much less development effort being put towards it. This is partly due to the refocus on to spaceship gameplay and the War expansion. Mainly it's because we want to take the time to do the gameplay in Incarna right and learn from the mistakes we made in creating the initial release.

The effort is being led by a new, small team inventively named Team Avatar. We're tasked with maintenance and improvement of existing systems, developing new features for the Captains Quarters, NeX Store and Character Creator and prototyping multiplayer gameplay for Incarna. Our top priority after dealing with defects that are live on TQ is to come up with a solid vision and find the gameplay for future work on a multiplayer Incarna release.

We are interested in your ideas and will trawl this epic thread to see what you guys have been discussing. Any more suggestions would be good to put in the Features & Ideas Discussion forum just so that they are more visible to us.

We'll be coming out with more concrete information on what this all entails soonish but fire away with questions.


Excellent, +1 'Like' and thank you very much for clarifying that there is a small team working on WiS game play development. Obviously it's going to be a while before we see anything major due to the focus on FiS war mechanics, hopefully that focus is on both Alliance/0.0 Sov and Factional Warfare.

As for posting threads for WiS ideas in 'Features & Ideas Discussion' forum, there's already been quite a few different ones posted. It probably be a good idea if CCP made a sticky thread asking for players to post ideas for WiS gameplay content. Then the various ideas would all be located in one area for easy reference. However, while I was browsing the 'Features & Ideas Discussion' sub forum channel, I noticed there was a definite lack of interaction by CCP.

I found these threads containing ideas for WiS content spread throughout 35 pages. There were some other threads about Character options such as wearing gloves, going barefoot or wearing sandals with socks. Also different types of head gear (Hat, Bandana, Cap, etc) or Eye Patch for the die hard Pirate as well as having Culturally/Ethnic clothing available (Kilts, Poncho's, etc). Even saw one asking for a wooden toothpick to chew on, lol. Also requests for hand held firearms, etc. Anyway, this list started to get rather long so I didn't include those.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=50401&find=unread - Professional Wardrobe

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58317&find=unread - Docking Animation

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=54614&find=unread - Complete Character Make-over

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=41031&find=unread - Character Portrait

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=50534&find=unread - Incarna War Room

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=55509&find=unread - Establishment Music

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=54870&find=unread - WiS Social Skills and Activities

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=54369&find=unread - WiS Nano-Surgery

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=53679&find=unread - WiS Slaves & Servants

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=53018&find=unread - Various Ideas

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=46481&find=unread - Viewing Ship In Station

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=42247&find=unread - WiS Gameplay
CCP Bayesian
#2594 - 2012-01-17 16:44:48 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
As for posting threads for WiS ideas in 'Features & Ideas Discussion' forum, there's already been quite a few different ones posted. It probably be a good idea if CCP made a sticky thread asking for players to post ideas for WiS gameplay content. Then the various ideas would all be located in one area for easy reference. However, while I was browsing the 'Features & Ideas Discussion' sub forum channel, I noticed there was a definite lack of interaction by CCP.


Thanks for taking the time to scour the sub-forum to find all those threads!

Hopefully you should see an uptake in participation as we really get rolling on this and throw some ideas and questions out. I'm reluctant to start commenting on specific ideas and their relative merits because there are literally almost as many as there are users posting on here. It can be too easy to get sucked into the rabbit hole. I think it's likely we will use that sub-forum to gain focused feedback though.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#2595 - 2012-01-17 16:45:54 UTC
Now, if there wasn't another medium of interaction, it would be a bit more clear. But with our spaceship interaction ability, why bother doing it in person? The amusing part is the converse of our situation in EVE. IN Real Life we don't interact through our "cars" unless we're going to ram into each other. We might talk while passing - but we don't all sit in a circle while in our cars and try and talk.


So, in EVE - is our "flesh body" the inverse of our "Starship body". Are we really... just cars while walking and our "bodies" while flying? I think it's an appropriately intriguing concept philosophically for EVE - and the most difficult conceptually to get past - since we're SO used to the inverse of this scenario in real life.


Our body is merely there to move our head around.


Other successful social games really simply just prey on a different KIND of player who wants different games to play (i.e. Second Life). But what makes sense for EVE players - I guess we're discussing that. I think the general consensus is we want immersion in a sci fi world, more than a specifically socially competitive experience. I figure the typical EVE player gets satisfaction not from socializing but from accomplishing difficult and challenging undertakings in a dangerous environment.

So, that's what it should really come down to in walking in stations.

Otherwise... you really need to create a new set of professions for Incarna and fill them with players who have NO interest in spaceships other than as a transportation tool... and then those are the people that occupy the space that the dedicated capsuleers come and live in.

I know this is a lot of theory talk, bear with me.


So, going back to the initial concept - Land Luving Capsuleers" as I'll call them for now. The LLCs would need essentially a whole level of gameplay provided to them that attracts players that want to fill these spaces more than on a temporary basis. There are already plenty of players that never leave some stations - so providing services for them would make sense as a start. The "Market District" provides -0.2% less broker fees while operating from. You can be anywhere in the district, in a bar, etc. So, i na sense - you start to form a segregating development of "docked" players that have an interest. That creates new social interactions where in EVE Before you really would all sit in a "Guest" space not having a clue what people were doing.

You could have an "Industry" district that would be slight improvements for manufacturing, as long as you're there - and that would allow for social industry experiences.

Now, let's say you have some crazy master plan to develop an industrial goal - you walk into the industrial district and start mingling with those people and see what they're all about. Alternately, if you're a scammer and you want to target industry scams, you can start wheeling and dealing your scams there. Same for market districts.

Now, I think we're getting somewhere that is founded on our current mechanics and the people that are Land Lubbers.

Combine that with the ability to manipulate how these districts influence your bonuses, and you add a political gameplay.





Of course, all this needs SOOO much more thought and development. But, does it work for you? Does it make sense?


With the LLCs in place, you can create more professions. How about "Janitor"? My first foray into science fiction games was as Roger Wilco the Starship Janitor in Space Quest. So, I think it'd be a great homage. :)

But really... you develop some LLC professions and you get a basic environment for people to want to stay. Develop an interesting environment that promotes certain gameplay and you can get bodies to hang around, after that the "Butterfly effect" will happen. But make it actually interesting to segregate play styles, and you get an interesting experience for interaction beyond the location.

This plays perfectly into the "Booster" concept too. Instead of having all establishments allowing boosters to be traded in them, really only SPECIFIC Black Market district establishments should allow Booster trading. THAT makes it actually unique.

"I need to go to the Rens Black Market to get my Boosters, because I can't trade them in JIta because there's too much political force from the Market and High Tech establishment investors that are influencing the area to allow a Black Market district."

How great does that sound?

Moving on.




So, if we have "Social Gameplay" happening in the station districts, there's really other gameplays to cater towards.

Competitive gameplay can be as simple as a poker game that you lose. Or how about the EVE Football League? Too much coding? Ya, I thought so.


Personal Advancement is where it gets interesting from some of the ideas that were presented at Fanfest. Get out of your spaceship onto a Blood Raider outpost - explore it and come back with some AWESOME goodies. And find your ship is stolen! (Starship Lo-Jack Please!!). On space stations however, I think there should be opportunities for this kind of introductory gameplay.

It'd be like a "high sec exploration site". You can explore parts of a station that have some challenges and have some "atmospheric" gameplay that you wouldn't get to see anywhere else, but wouldn't be super rewarding in itself.


Maybe a player can find one of these spaces and claim it for himself, having a "den" to hide in to do his dirty private deeds. And that comes back into the idea of "Homesteads" having a captains quarters - where in the middle of space you can board someone elses "station environment" that they've set up and loot and ransack it!

Alright, without getting ahead of myself. I think I laid out some great ideas for social gameplay - the competitive and the personal advancement gameplay can come from many many different and great angles.

Thanks!

Where I am.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#2596 - 2012-01-17 16:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I wrote up my little essay because we got a committed Dev response to this.

Please give it a read when you can, i think it's a pretty good presentation of ideas and I know they won't get approved or denied, but I'm just trying to feed your imagination on the potential for expanding this into more than "space barbie" and into something where what you do matters, and how it matters - which can create the "butterfly effect" that we all love in EVE so much.

Where I am.

CCP Bayesian
#2597 - 2012-01-17 16:59:26 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to respond.


No problem, thanks for sharing your ideas!

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Di Mulle
#2598 - 2012-01-17 16:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Di Mulle
Scatim Helicon wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Basically, "our top priority after dealing with defects that are live on TQ is to come up with a solid vision and find the gameplay for future work on a multiplayer Incarna release". From my perspective anything we do has to be compelling and if we can find a compelling gameplay experience in expanding the CQ with multiplayer aspects then that is something we'd definitely look at. We are definitely going to be looking at letting you out of the CQ though as they'd get crowded pretty quickly. ;)


Bolded the bits that you'd expect to have been done at the very beginning of development rather than after 5 years.

(


QFT.

Can't help myself, but to wonder for the 1000th time how CCP managed to go into such costly (and as it happened, near deadly) venture without having any clue what they want to do... and even not planning to get such a clue..

However, that makes recent recovery of CCP even more amazing. Idiots usually go down all the way... CCP found some cure instead, it seems.


And thanks for the response, CCP Bayesian.
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#2599 - 2012-01-17 17:08:01 UTC


One last post from me. Oops This will be short!


I always like to make a "Crazy and never going to happen" list of ideas for fun not for development.




  • Station Hangar - The ability to see all your ships and walk past them on a massive hangar floor
  • Warehouse hangar - Able to walk through the piles of JUNK that you have in your hangar! Able to pick it up, kick it, call in a "tractor beam" to move stuff around, etc.
  • Observation Deck - Able to see out into space what's happening.
  • The Sports Arena - Able to play competitive first person style sports with your mates.
  • Meet your Agent! - Able to walk into an Agents office and have a chat and a coffee with them. Maybe meet the Amarrian Empress for some tea?




Oh, one last thing. Dust players are another form of "Land Lubbers" and should totally be allowed to integrate into station environments as part of the ability to expand the station populations.

Where I am.

Sakura Imoru
Perkone
Caldari State
#2600 - 2012-01-17 17:22:54 UTC
Sakura Imoru wrote:
How are the chances to get a proper "Pod-Room" so we can emerge from our capsule more in private instead of the whole station watching us on the balcony in the buff?

Ninja-Edit:

A big cheer for the new Team Avatar \o/
Already <3 you guys ^^


Seems like my question has been missed Oops