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[Odyssey 1.1] Skill group name changes

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Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#241 - 2013-07-04 18:04:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Don't you think changing skill names is "dumbing the game down"?
  • EVE gameplay and sense of loss should be harsh, dark and unforgiving, in that there is no doubt and we agree completely. However, fighting the UI at every turn should not be the main complexity point here - it just means players have become used to an old and outdated interface for too long. Simply put, the hard and unforgiving nature of EVE should not be to retrieve information on a basic level, it should be on how players act based on that information and interact with the gameplay that revolves around it.

  • In all cases, many thanks for the comments people!

If you want to fix "fighting UI" start with drone UI and corp management UI. Skill system is(was) ok. As i said earlier in this thread its not about dumbing game, but your new skill names lost flavor and became just another skills with generic names that doesnt have the feel of cold, harsh and unforgiving universe. The only sensible change was for Nanite Control skill.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#242 - 2013-07-04 18:13:29 UTC
While you're looking at inconsistence in skill names are you going to fix inconsistence in their effects and prerequisites?

One example is how Sentry drones skill differs from all other drone types, explained in detail here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=253506
Jhan Niber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2013-07-04 18:19:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jhan Niber
Doesn't make sense to get rid of the subsystem category. Subsystems are integral necessary parts of Tech 3 ships, unlike rigs, and it would be clearer to leave the subsystem group.

Forgot to say that otherwise it looks good to me. One last suggestion, it would be nice to see something like (P, W) next to a skill indicating the primary and secondary attribute of Perception Willpower.
gramafon
The Night Watchmen
Goonswarm Federation
#244 - 2013-07-04 18:19:27 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Going to edit my previous post to be less sarcastic - we value your feedback, which is why we're posting here.

Regarding the Subsystem / PI groups, we're not saying it's going to be final, we're just mentioning our preference here, we definitely see where you are coming from.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3299526#post3299526
please read this (if you didnt do it before).

I think its really easy to correct and could make EVE is much more better and easier for players Attention
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
#245 - 2013-07-04 18:20:18 UTC
Clearly I'm a long way from being a noob and compared to when I started, this game is infinitely easier to get to grips with, so forgive me if I'm wrong in my assessment. Yet I can't help feel that the way skills are presented is antiquated, having not much changed in the last ten years and where the problem of over complexity lies. You have a character sheet showing a series of cascading drop down lists providing minimal visual information by way of five squares to indicate levels of training. The same applies to certificates.

What I feel would be much better is a more visual approach to the skill sheet is more along the lines of an organisational chart. Begin each with the base skill and then branching skills off that, showing clearly the skill path you're taking to your desired outcome. So let's say you have something simple like the Navigation skills. Rather than being held within a drop down menu, you visually represent them something like this. This is just a quick mock up just to give you an idea of what I mean. What I'm thinking is something like this.

The character sheet starts off not too dissimilar to what it is now but when you click on a skill category, it opens up an interactive window, similar to the character/ship picture sheet, containing the graph linking all skills within that category. Each circle is divided in to five segments, each representing a level of skill training. Each connecting line is red until the corresponding skills prerequisite level is reached. Hover over the skill and it tells you the required level needed to unlock its training. As you can now, you can filter between skills you have, skills you have and you can train or all skills available within that skill's category.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Phoenus
Doomheim
#246 - 2013-07-04 18:22:31 UTC
Please for the love of christ Ytterbium, learn how to spell armour properly.

You don't need to encourage the savages who have decimated the second most widely spoken language in the world.
Titus Tallang
EVE University
Ivy League
#247 - 2013-07-04 18:25:27 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
looking things up in the wiki is appealing?


To me, yes. Finding information provides a sense of accomplishment.

Director of Education - EVE University - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/

Jakob Anedalle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-07-04 18:44:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jakob Anedalle
Re: Starship Command / Piloting

Perhaps CCP is moving away from the idea of there being a big crew inside the ships. A crew that we always ignore or pretend aren't there because it would break other things?

Trying out all the things to do here in Eve - it's quite a checklist. So I made a blog Jakob's Eve Checklist

Morgred
State War Academy
Caldari State
#249 - 2013-07-04 18:53:42 UTC
what is grametiric sensor compensation? please tell me caldari ships still use gravimetric sensors to find stellar bodies instead of using words and alphabets to find these stellar bodies. (i jest of course)

what about planetary interaction? it makes sense that planet scanning goes with the other scanning skills but will the skills used to build better planet infrastructure be placed under the harvesting skill groups or the manufacturing skill groups?
Bob Bedala
#250 - 2013-07-04 18:58:27 UTC
Probably the most important post here so far:

Crash Lander wrote:
This is good however what does this mean for the primary and secondary attributes of the skills?
Previously it was possible to guess (mostly correctly)


BAM! I think although good changes and overall helpful to new players, without better surfacing of the relations between skills & prim/sec attributes, it makes explaining that tricky topic to newer players more difficult.

Also +1 for Spaceship Command.
Carmaine
The Awesome Corp
#251 - 2013-07-04 19:17:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Carmaine
Dropping my 2 cents:


  • Has people have already said, keep Spaceship Command, we are commanders, not pilots. We're not sitting on the deck and piloting our mighty battleships, we are on the deck ordering our men tasks that they were trained to do (on top of other things like the whole "we feel what the ship feels thing".) Same could be said about the targeting rename, very poorly done.

  • Why is planetary Interaction split all over the place? Your intention is to make things cleaner and easier to understand by new players, than you go and move all the planetary interaction skills to different skill subsets. (Command Center Upgrades in Resource Processing? Advanced Planetology in Scanning (Btw, logy means science of/the study of, if anything it should be in science).)

  • Keep the T3 tab, if anything you should be added more sub-tabs to that for each race, not removing it!

unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2013-07-04 19:27:10 UTC
Mechanics seems an odd one out in the armor group maybe just call it armor or armor managment?

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#253 - 2013-07-04 19:28:22 UTC
Carmaine wrote:
Dropping my 2 cents:
[list]
  • Has people have already said, keep Spaceship Command, we are commanders, not pilots. We're not sitting on the deck and piloting our mighty battleships, we are on the deck ordering our men tasks that they were trained to do (on top of other things like the whole "we feel what the ship feels thing".)

  • To be precise we are not on ship's deck. I doubt there are decks on ships at all. Maintenance crew can be near gun ports or engine room, but there is no real need for deck. Capsuleer himself is located deep inside ship in capsule.

    Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #254 - 2013-07-04 19:39:51 UTC
    unimatrix0030 wrote:
    Mechanics seems an odd one out in the armor group maybe just call it armor or armor managment?


    its actually the Hull HP bonus skill ... hull upgrades is armour HP skill ... confusing isn't it .. i have played the game since 2010 and i still mix them up and have to look at evemon to go oh right that's what they do..

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Carmaine
    The Awesome Corp
    #255 - 2013-07-04 19:47:05 UTC
    Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
    Carmaine wrote:
    Dropping my 2 cents:
    [list]
  • Has people have already said, keep Spaceship Command, we are commanders, not pilots. We're not sitting on the deck and piloting our mighty battleships, we are on the deck ordering our men tasks that they were trained to do (on top of other things like the whole "we feel what the ship feels thing".)

  • To be precise we are not on ship's deck. I doubt there are decks on ships at all. Maintenance crew can be near gun ports or engine room, but there is no real need for deck. Capsuleer himself is located deep inside ship in capsule.

    Well maybe not on the deck but you get my point, I think there is a distinction between a pilot and a commander of a ship, even dictionary definition from Merriam-Webster points to the same conclusion. The commander/master of a ship (Can be called Captain) orders his crew in the navy, and it translates to the same thing in the air force, the commander/captain of a plane is an officer who commands the crew of an airplane.

    Meanwhile pilot is either:
    a : one employed to steer a ship : helmsman
    b : a person who is qualified and usually licensed to conduct a ship into and out of a port or in specified waters
    c : a person who flies or is qualified to fly an aircraft or spacecraft
    Although it is not defined in definition C, we can assume that it refers to small planes, where you have little to no orders to give.
    Little Dragon Khamez
    Guardians of the Underworld
    #256 - 2013-07-04 19:48:28 UTC
    Unforgiven Storm wrote:
    Just to clarify since I don't see any CSM saying nothing against it, the CSM agrees with this change: Spaceship command -> Spaceship Piloting ?

    really?

    explain

    Edit: Can a CSM post here the official CSM position about those changes, now that the cat is out I would like to hear a official word about the people that represent me about this proposal.


    Good luck with that, they are career politicians that turn invisible when the spotlight is on them.

    Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

    Callic Veratar
    #257 - 2013-07-04 20:06:40 UTC
    I think it would be really helpful to add sub-groups of skills.

    Spaceship Piloting (SC, ACS, Cap ship)
    > Amarr Spaceship Command (F/D/C/BC/BS/I/SC/...)
    > Caldari Spaceship Command (F/D/C/BC/BS/I/SC/...)
    > Gallente Spaceship Command (F/D/C/BC/BS/I/SC/...)
    > Minmatar Spaceship Command (F/D/C/BC/BS/I/SC/...)
    > Tech 2 Spaceship Command (AS, Inty, Dic, HIC, HAC, etc)

    Definitely feature creep, but it would make things a lot easier to manage.
    Sarmatiko
    #258 - 2013-07-04 20:13:37 UTC
    I wonder when devs get their hands on Thermodynamics..
    "It's too confusing for average newbie Joe, poor dude cannot read skill description! Let's rename this to Module Overheating".
    Straight
    Little Dragon Khamez
    Guardians of the Underworld
    #259 - 2013-07-04 20:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Update based on what we have seen so far.

    Multiple Targeting and Advanced Multiple Targeting:
  • Agreed, it doesn't sound that great. As with Spaceship Piloting, this will be discussed internally again - some options listed in that thread sound promising, but please remember that we would ideally like skill names to be representative of what they actually do.



  • Target Acquisition and Advanced Target Acquisition, increased levels in either skill allow you to 'aquire' more targets etc.

    Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

    Deornoth Drake
    Vandeo
    #260 - 2013-07-04 20:21:16 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:



      snip
      Primary and secondary attribute concerns:
    • Relax, we thought this over, and this is less of an issue than you think it is Blink
    • Armor: only consists of Intelligence / Memory skills
    • Electronic Systems: same, Intelligence / Memory
    • Engineering: mainly has Intelligence / Memory skills, except for Weapons Upgrades and Advanced Weapons Upgrades, requiring either Perception / Memory or Perception / Willpower.
    • Neural Enhancement: mainly has Intelligence / Memory, except for the Informorph Phsychology skill that has Charisma / Willpower.
    • Production: skills only require Memory / Intelligence or Intelligence / Memory, which is not a problem.
    • Resource Processing: mainly has Memory / Intelligence skills, except for Interplanetary Consolidation, Command Center Upgrades requiring Charisma / Intelligence, and Astrogeology, requiring Intelligence / Memory.
    • Scanning: only has Intelligence / Memory skills.
    • Science: skills all are Intelligence / Memory, except for Research Project Management, which is Memory / Charisma.
    • Shields: have Intelligence / Memory attributes.
    • Ship Modification: skills are either Intelligence / Memory, or Perception / Willpower for Offensive and Propulsion Subsystems, but this will exist no matter in which group Tech3 subsystem skills are.
    • Targeting: are Intelligence / Memory based.
    • snip


    Still no mention about if you're really intending to change them or not!
    Due to attribute remapping we do plan ahead about a year (more or less) so it would be great if you could let us know in advance (as in several months) before you change the primary and secondary attributes. Or you could just grant additional remaps or skill points.