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[Odyssey 1.1] Skill group name changes

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Kekminator
Loktar Ogar Co.
#181 - 2013-07-04 11:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kekminator
sytaqe violacea wrote:

Those change should be fixed like this:

Electronics has been renamed to "Basic Electronics"
Engineering has been renamed to "Basic Engineering"
Targeting has been renamed to "Elementary Targeting"


How about "Targeting for Dummies?" Big smile
tasman devil
Puritans
#182 - 2013-07-04 11:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: tasman devil
I know I will be probably ignored but I just cannot let this go past without me saying my mind about it.

The whole refurbishing of the skill groups sounds nice, but...
BUT!


Let us have a look at what my problems with this reorganisation is:
Armours
Shields
Electronic Systems
Engineering
Ship Modifications
Targeting
Scanning
Are all related to ships and ship fitting one way or another.
Plus PI has already its own group, but now they will be a part of another skill group –read: they just dump PI into another group while at the same time clearly stating that they want every one of those groups to have a ground of their own – sounds either hypocrite or not really thought out for me, you’ll be the judge on that! :P

So what SHOULD we do?
If you dig deep, really deep down there are three core elements of the skill sets:
1: Productions one way or another (production/invention/exploration, etc)
2: Ship commands one way or another (pvp/pve)
3: Character managements one way or another (implants, leadership, /corp/ally management, etc.)
So how can we benefit from this? - By enabling sub-categories to emerge!
It is really not a difficult thing but would enable to have a logical build-up of skills:

Spaceship Command ALL T1 ship command skills
├ Advanced Spacehip Command (Tech 2 ship command skills)
├ Armour Management (Armour skills)
├ Drone Management (Drone skills)
├ Electronic Systems Management (CPU skills)
├ Electronic Warfare Management (EW / Anti-EW skills)
├ Engineering Management (PG skills)
├ Gunnery Management (Gunnery skills)
├ Missiles Management (Missile skills)
├ Navigation Management (Navigation skills)
├ Shield Management (Shield skills)
├ Ship Modifications (Rigs and T3 subsystems skills)

Pilot Enhancement (Clone skills)
├ Corporation Management (Corporation stuff (NO POS!))
├ Neural Enhancement (Implants and boosters)
├ Leadership Enhancement (Leadership skills)
├ Social Relations (Social skills)

Science (Generic Science skills)
├ Production (Manufacturing skills)
├ Research (Invention, hacking, salvaging)
├ Planetary and Personal Production (PI and POS skills)
├ Resource Processing (Reprocess)
├ Resource Harvesting (Mining)
├ Trade Management (Trade skills)

I try to clear the dust a little:

Ship Commands: Everything related to ships (read: skills that affect ship properties when trained), basic command and module enabling skills go into here (odd one out for example: bubbles as they require anchoring which will be in Science in this new order)

Pilot Enhancements: Everything related to having a better performing character and cross-character relations. Implants, boosters, corporations skills, social standing. (read everything that affects the CHARACTER and/or the player – and the player relations)

Science: Here goes everything related to acquiring stuff. (read: building stuff, erecting stuff (POS, Station), mining stuff, looting stuff, trading stuff etc).

I don't belive in reincarnation I've never believed in it in my previous lives either...
Luscius Uta
#183 - 2013-07-04 11:21:32 UTC
What is the reason for this, Microsoft taking over CCP?

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#184 - 2013-07-04 11:32:46 UTC
sounds like ok changes to me, except starship command should stay like it is.
Star ship piloting sounds to me like it could be navigation skills and not starship command skill.
Besides Starship command sounds more epic than piloting Big smile
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#185 - 2013-07-04 11:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Luscius Uta wrote:
What is the reason for this, Microsoft taking over CCP?

Probably hired some new devs that had hard time to understand the game and felt the need to dumb game down for personal convenience.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Reikoku Ao
High Seas Empire
#186 - 2013-07-04 11:45:09 UTC
"Iq Cadaen" wrote:
Some pretty bad Engrish in there.
Some suggestions for improvement:


"Multiple Targeting" sounds ridiculous, change to "Multi-Targeting" and "Advanced Multi-Targeting".
"Electronic System" group should be "Electronic Systems" or, even better, "Electronic Warfare [Systems]".
"Missiles" might be better as "Missile Systems" or just keep it as is.
"Shields" and "Armor" to "Shield Systems" and "Armor Systems".
"Spaceship Piloting" should just stay "Spaceship Command", there's just no way "Piloting" would sound good there.
"Targeting" to "Sensors & Targeting"


This.

Especially Multiple Targeting and Spaceship Piloting, they sound so wrong I'm considering actually opening my eyes (see portrait) and taking a closer look at this to prevent a disaster from falling upon New Eden.
Daedra Blue
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2013-07-04 11:54:58 UTC
While i do applaud the take on this and i think there should be some work done let's not get over ourselves and turn this naming into Teletubbies. Seriously Spaceship Piloting? What are we 5?

Come on it's a SCI-FI MMO, we don't have to dumb it down THAT MUCH! If its confusing to a 5 year old then that's fine!

Make some corrections to the namings but don't turn them all into 1 word bonanza.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#188 - 2013-07-04 12:20:32 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Targeting: for the same reasons as above, this skill has been renamed "Multiple Targeting".

  • Multitasking: has been renamed "Advanced Multiple Targeting" for the same reasons as above.



    • I think "Multitargeting" and "Advanced Multitargeting" would be easier to use, if you explain people what skills they need on voice. I do appreciate the name changes, since I always get a headache if I need to explain to people what a skill named Multitasking does and why they need it for specific things, like flying Logistics.

    Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
    Sergeant Acht Scultz
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #189 - 2013-07-04 12:30:06 UTC
    This change is good.

    Will be a lot easier for new players to identify skills and what they do.

    Hope this will also impact in game items and ships prerequisites description so noobies can easily look at and say "yeah I need to learn this to x and that to y"

    Awesome, keep the good work.

    removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
    anishamora
    Atelierele Grivita
    #190 - 2013-07-04 12:46:03 UTC
    tasman devil wrote:
    I know I will be probably ignored but I just cannot let this go past without me saying my mind about it.

    The whole refurbishing of the skill groups sounds nice, but...
    BUT!


    Let us have a look at what my problems with this reorganisation is:
    Armours
    Shields
    Electronic Systems
    Engineering
    Ship Modifications
    Targeting
    Scanning
    Are all related to ships and ship fitting one way or another.
    Plus PI has already its own group, but now they will be a part of another skill group –read: they just dump PI into another group while at the same time clearly stating that they want every one of those groups to have a ground of their own – sounds either hypocrite or not really thought out for me, you’ll be the judge on that! :P

    So what SHOULD we do?
    If you dig deep, really deep down there are three core elements of the skill sets:
    1: Productions one way or another (production/invention/exploration, etc)
    2: Ship commands one way or another (pvp/pve)
    3: Character managements one way or another (implants, leadership, /corp/ally management, etc.)
    So how can we benefit from this? - By enabling sub-categories to emerge!
    It is really not a difficult thing but would enable to have a logical build-up of skills:

    Spaceship Command ALL T1 ship command skills
    ├ Advanced Spacehip Command (Tech 2 ship command skills)
    ├ Armour Management (Armour skills)
    ├ Drone Management (Drone skills)
    ├ Electronic Systems Management (CPU skills)
    ├ Electronic Warfare Management (EW / Anti-EW skills)
    ├ Engineering Management (PG skills)
    ├ Gunnery Management (Gunnery skills)
    ├ Missiles Management (Missile skills)
    ├ Navigation Management (Navigation skills)
    ├ Shield Management (Shield skills)
    ├ Ship Modifications (Rigs and T3 subsystems skills)

    Pilot Enhancement (Clone skills)
    ├ Corporation Management (Corporation stuff (NO POS!))
    ├ Neural Enhancement (Implants and boosters)
    ├ Leadership Enhancement (Leadership skills)
    ├ Social Relations (Social skills)

    Science (Generic Science skills)
    ├ Production (Manufacturing skills)
    ├ Research (Invention, hacking, salvaging)
    ├ Planetary and Personal Production (PI and POS skills)
    ├ Resource Processing (Reprocess)
    ├ Resource Harvesting (Mining)
    ├ Trade Management (Trade skills)

    I try to clear the dust a little:

    Ship Commands: Everything related to ships (read: skills that affect ship properties when trained), basic command and module enabling skills go into here (odd one out for example: bubbles as they require anchoring which will be in Science in this new order)

    Pilot Enhancements: Everything related to having a better performing character and cross-character relations. Implants, boosters, corporations skills, social standing. (read everything that affects the CHARACTER and/or the player – and the player relations)

    Science: Here goes everything related to acquiring stuff. (read: building stuff, erecting stuff (POS, Station), mining stuff, looting stuff, trading stuff etc).


    I really like this, intuitive and organized in a logical manner. CCP should really take this advice/idea.
    Caleb Ayrania
    TarNec
    Invisible Exchequer
    #191 - 2013-07-04 12:54:06 UTC
    Fixing skill groups.. Awesome..

    New trend of dumbing down names, to make things easier.. STOP IT.

    Make better wiki entries. Make links in the item info that use IGB and take us directly to WIKI.

    Also make SSO + IGB to WIKI so we can create and edit directly and with our Character as editor. That way SO many new options and things can emerge!
    Unforgiven Storm
    Eternity INC.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #192 - 2013-07-04 13:23:35 UTC
    I can't find information about these details:

    Doomsday Operation -> you put this inside the gunnery?
    Jump Portal Operation -> you put this inside the Navigation group?

    Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration ???

    Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
    Vesan Terakol
    Trollgrin Sadface
    Dark Taboo
    #193 - 2013-07-04 13:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vesan Terakol
    Guys, how about you make the skills less of a pain to navigate through by giving us a visually better menu for them. Like the one for DUST - showing visually how skills are connected - instead of arbitrarily bunching them together (rigs and subsystems or PI resource band resolution and scanning in same groups, lol) or trying to come up with a stupid names (won't even start it, people before me said it clear enough).

    While I support the general idea of redoing the skills organization, what is the most confusing thing for a new player are not the names - the old names sound cool (most of the times). Engineering and electronics are excellent as they are, because as a new player, still caught by the excitement of just starting to play, you feel like you're training something meaningful - you can obviously both the chief engineer and the science officer of your ship! (Would love to make a Star Trek reference, but i haven't watched the series/movies enough to remember the names). Remember, you're dealing with either people that love to immerse themselves in Sci-Fi worlds and actually find the names cool, or people that are smart enough to make sense of the skill names, even if they don't care. Some name changer were good tho, as some names are ambiguous at best.

    Anyway, the point I want to make is that its not the names, but the presentation that confuses people. It is a long list, that will give you a headache the first time you see it. It will continuously haunt you, as understanding the connections between those skills will require you to memorize every single entry.

    What i suggest is having something like radial (or more like sphere in order to allow the visualization of the sometimes complex skill interaction) skill web, that could possibly integrate both the skill list and the certificate list - imagine the skill web being like the branches of a simplified tree and the certificates - like the foliage, that grows around those branches.
    And please, don't say its too complex - surely a bunch of experts in programing can make sense of interconnecting systems.

    Your "improvement" has the right spirit, but is nowhere near what you should do about the skills and certificates - its an excuse, and you can spend your time on something more meaningful.

    P.S: Go big or go home! (or on a vacation - you might need one)
    Rob Crowley
    State War Academy
    #194 - 2013-07-04 13:34:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Crowley
    Good changes:

    • Nanite Control
    • Multitasking
    • splitting up some overloaded skill groups


    Bad changes:

    • Spaceship Piloting: this sounds cheap and childish
    • Multiple Targeting: sounds odd, there were several better ideas in this thread
    • Subsystems should stay alone in their group because they are special snowflake skills of which you can lose SPs, also the groups of subsystems and rigs are already large enough on their own without combining them
    • Missiles: sounds too simple, kinda like if you'd rename Gunnery to Guns, at least call it Missile Systems or something like that
    • Electronics and Engineering were good names really, they don't need more descriptiveness in their name and the new overspecific names don't really fit for such basic skills and their use as prereqs for many different things


    I'm not entirely sure what to think about splitting up PI skills, their new locations make some sense, but then again PI is really its own minigame and you'll want all the relevant skills for it or none at all.

    Noriko Mai wrote:
    And if you change the market groups and move subystems together with rigs it will be a mess.
    Good morning! Subsystems have shared a market group (called Ship Modifications) with rigs for as long as they exist.

    pmchem wrote:
    every third party dev dealing with skills just slit their wrists
    I'm a third party dev dealing with skills (quite possibly we have more skill related functionality than any other third party tool) and I don't think I'll have to resort to wrist slitting. All these changes should not require any work except including the new SDE. Skill trees are generated automatically and whenever a specific skill is required for something it should be referenced by typeID, not by name.
    Danny Centauri
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #195 - 2013-07-04 13:40:28 UTC
    Awesome change, makes me wonder why it has been so cryptic in the past. No longer do I have to go digging for battleship construction skill forgetting what it comes under. Only confusing thing is that to build rigs you need skills from ship modification and production.

    Not sure how you would handle skills falling under primary and secondary categories but 99.99% sure it will be out of scope of the task you've been given.

    Think it would help new players in long run integrating a basic version of EVE mon into the client, then agents as rewards can give them their early skill plans. Really need to do a lot more to educate the don't bother joining a corp masses to keep them in game and funding cool stuff for everyone.

    EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
    Unforgiven Storm
    Eternity INC.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #196 - 2013-07-04 13:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
    First impression looks good, but you are completely ignoring industry importance and specificity by mixing some industry skills in where they should not be (I'm referring to PI stuff) and not separating mining from refining activities.

    Industry could get more love and be clearly separated in this skill re-shifting.

    Industry

    + Production (good change)

    Advanced Mass Production, Battleship Construction, Capital Ship Construction, Cruiser Construction, Drug Manufacturing, Frigate Construction, Industrial Construction, Industry, Mass Production, Outpost Construction, Production Efficiency, Supply Chain Management

    + Research (new name instead of Science)

    Advanced Laboratory Operation, Amarr Encryption Methods, Amarrian Starship Engineering, Astronautic Engineering, Caldari Encryption Methods, Caldari Starship Engineering, Defensive Subsystem Technology, Electromagnetic Physics, Electronic Engineering, Electronic Subsystem Technology, Engineering Subsystem Technology, Gallente Encryption Methods, Gallentean Starship Engineering, Graviton Physics, High Energy Physics, Hydromagnetic Physics, Laboratory Operation, Laser Physics, Mechanical Engineering, Metallurgy, Minmatar Encryption Methods, Minmatar Starship Engineering, Molecular Engineering, Nanite Engineering, Nuclear Physics, Offensive Subsystem Technology, Plasma Physics, Propulsion Subsystem Technology, Quantum Physics, Research, Research Project Management, Reverse Engineering, Rocket Science, Science, Scientific Networking, Sleeper Technology, Takmahl Technology, Talocan Technology, Yan Jung Technology

    + Resource Harvesting (Mining only skills)

    Astrogeology, Deep Core Mining, Gas Cloud Harvesting, Ice Harvesting, Mining, Mining Upgrades, Salvaging,

    + Resource Processing (Reprocess only skills)

    Arkonor Processing, Bistot Processing, Crokite Processing, Dark Ochre Processing, Gneiss Processing, Hedbergite Processing, Hemorphite Processing, Ice Processing, Industrial Reconfiguration, Jaspet Processing, Kernite Processing, Mercoxit Processing, Omber Processing, Plagioclase Processing, Pyroxeres Processing, Refinery Efficiency, Refining, Scordite Processing, Scrapmetal Processing, Spodumain Processing and Veldspar Processing

    + Planetary and Moon Interation (PI and POS skills)

    Command Center Upgrades, Interplanetary Consolidation, Advanced Planetology, Planetology, Remote Sensing, Anchoring, Starbase Defense Management

    + Trade

    Accounting, Broker Relations, Contracting, Corporation Contracting, Daytrading, Margin Trading, Marketing, Procurement, Retail, Trade, Tycoon, Visibility, Wholesale

    Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
    Geairt Annok
    Malevelon Roe Industries
    Convocation of Empyreans
    #197 - 2013-07-04 13:55:25 UTC
    Please leave Subsystems in their current category separate from the rigging skills. Currently they are alll together for each race and easy to navigate. If you mix them with the rigging skills they will be separated less easy to navigate.


    You can also leave the targeting skills alone they make sense and those new names are weak. Keep any mind any cahnge you ake we will continue to call them by the old name anyway and it will only confuse new players who talk to the old ones.
    Sergeant Acht Scultz
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #198 - 2013-07-04 14:04:22 UTC
    Rob Crowley wrote:
    Bad changes:
    [list]
  • Spaceship Piloting: this sounds cheap and childish


    • Indeed

    How about "Space Craft Credentials" ?

    removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
    Unforgiven Storm
    Eternity INC.
    Goonswarm Federation
    #199 - 2013-07-04 14:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
    Just to clarify since I don't see any CSM saying nothing against it, the CSM agrees with this change: Spaceship command -> Spaceship Piloting ?

    really?

    explain

    Edit: Can a CSM post here the official CSM position about those changes, now that the cat is out I would like to hear a official word about the people that represent me about this proposal.

    Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
    Jeanne-Luise Argenau
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #200 - 2013-07-04 14:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
    CCP Ytterbium i can see why those group changes will help. Also the name changes of some Skills like (Spaceship command, Engineering and Electronics) werent necessary but i can live with that.

    Now what makes me worry is that the old skills were grouped in the matter of the Attributes u needed mapped to train them the fastest. So now the Skill Tree in your character and the training queue atleast need 2 columns with primary attrib and secondary attrib so that u can see directly (like the groups before) what effects the training time. (Also it may help to add that to the market too but i dont know how precisly).

    -1 as long as the attrib problem isnt solved. if it is solved +1

    EDIT: also be able to sort skills alphabetical by primary skill or secondary attrib. if sorted by attrib do a secondary sort alphabetical