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[IDEA] Give skill points as a reward for completing PvE missions/Ratting/Bounty's

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Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2013-07-04 15:12:39 UTC
Thousands of people run missions or shoot giant space rocks or sit for hours in null sec POS bashing or... Well the list goes on and all that is grinding so telling me that trying to stop newbies from wanting to grind just so they can go out and grind some more seems a bit disingenuous.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#142 - 2013-07-04 15:24:52 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Thousands of people run missions or shoot giant space rocks or sit for hours in null sec POS bashing or... Well the list goes on and all that is grinding so telling me that trying to stop newbies from wanting to grind just so they can go out and grind some more seems a bit disingenuous.


The issue isn't telling people not to grind. The issue is forcing people into grinding to keep up with everyone else.

Could you answer this for me please: If most of the players didn't have a problem with the SP progression system that's been in place for the last 10 years why has it suddenly become a problem now? What's changed that means that this proposed modification to the skill progression system needs to be made now?

I'd love to know the ages of the people who think it's a good idea. I do wonder whether it's simply a change in the way people think about what they're entitled to. It's been mooted that the younger generation have a much stronger feeling of entitlement, a shorter attention span, less patience and a much stronger wish for instant gratification than older generations. I've read several articles regarding this over the last year.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#143 - 2013-07-04 15:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Thousands of people run missions or shoot giant space rocks or sit for hours in null sec POS bashing or... Well the list goes on and all that is grinding so telling me that trying to stop newbies from wanting to grind just so they can go out and grind some more seems a bit disingenuous.


I don't particularly mind if they want to go out and grind spacerocks or npc rats, I just don't want the immediate impression of the game that is given to new players to be one that implies those are things are the main drive of the game, or that they are things that are absolutely necessary in order to progress - tying it to skillpoints really strongly implies that latter case, that you simply have to grind in order to catch up skillpoint wise.

The skill system in eve, and it NOT being something that is influenced by grinding, is rather unique in MMOs, not just unique but I think an extremely brilliant idea, and the game is structured in a way in which this works well. Introducing grind-for-sp is just terrible
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#144 - 2013-07-04 15:41:40 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:

Well as the the underlined point, I started less than 3 months ago and I never got any double SP gain so in that regard I think your mistaken.



In the past when you created a charcter you had also to select a education/profesional profile for him. Like "trader" "covert ops specialist" (I don't remember now how what they was exactly) and such. And you started with some milions SP already allocated in the base skills for that profile (again, I don't remember exaclty how much was).

Later they changed this system with the argument (correct) that a new player needed to know what to do to allocate points properly. So they removed this and to compensate added a doubled SP for the first milions (again, not sure how much) of SP. Is not like you see some flashy halo or a buff icon, simply your SP progress requires half of the time. I don't think they removed this.

Also, almost any aspect of the game already has a very low SP barrier and could theorically accessed after few weeks. What make things hard for a new comer is not the SP barrier but the knowledge barrier: the game is complicated and the learning curve is harsh.

The knowledge required to do something is always higher than the SP required.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#145 - 2013-07-04 15:44:25 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:


Also, almost any aspect of the game already has a very low SP barrier and could theorically accessed after few weeks. What make things hard for a new comer is not the SP barrier but the knowledge barrier: the game is complicated and the learning curve is harsh.

The knowledge required to do something is always higher than the SP required.




This is the tl;dr of the whole thread really.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2013-07-04 15:50:06 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:


Also, almost any aspect of the game already has a very low SP barrier and could theorically accessed after few weeks. What make things hard for a new comer is not the SP barrier but the knowledge barrier: the game is complicated and the learning curve is harsh.

The knowledge required to do something is always higher than the SP required.




This is the tl;dr of the whole thread really.

I always like this example of the EVE learning curve Vs. other MMOs
http://mmoreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/LearningCurve1.jpg

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2013-07-04 16:43:46 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Thousands of people run missions or shoot giant space rocks or sit for hours in null sec POS bashing or... Well the list goes on and all that is grinding so telling me that trying to stop newbies from wanting to grind just so they can go out and grind some more seems a bit disingenuous.


The issue isn't telling people not to grind. The issue is forcing people into grinding to keep up with everyone else.

Could you answer this for me please: If most of the players didn't have a problem with the SP progression system that's been in place for the last 10 years why has it suddenly become a problem now? What's changed that means that this proposed modification to the skill progression system needs to be made now?

I'd love to know the ages of the people who think it's a good idea. I do wonder whether it's simply a change in the way people think about what they're entitled to. It's been mooted that the younger generation have a much stronger feeling of entitlement, a shorter attention span, less patience and a much stronger wish for instant gratification than older generations. I've read several articles regarding this over the last year.


I'm not really saying that it's a problem as such but I do not believe it's perfect. And I certainly believe that for a new player just getting started in the game, the skill progression needs to be faster for longer. If you can also get those new players out and doing something to earn SP's while also learning the mechanics of the game instead of just doubling the speed of SP increase without given a good explanation of the skills they need to train then then that almighty learning curve might just flatten out a bit.

Also you seem to be implying that I'm just a spoiled kid that wants everything in this game straight away, well I'm not and I don't.
Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2013-07-04 16:48:41 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:

Well as the the underlined point, I started less than 3 months ago and I never got any double SP gain so in that regard I think your mistaken.



In the past when you created a charcter you had also to select a education/profesional profile for him. Like "trader" "covert ops specialist" (I don't remember now how what they was exactly) and such. And you started with some milions SP already allocated in the base skills for that profile (again, I don't remember exaclty how much was).

Later they changed this system with the argument (correct) that a new player needed to know what to do to allocate points properly. So they removed this and to compensate added a doubled SP for the first milions (again, not sure how much) of SP. Is not like you see some flashy halo or a buff icon, simply your SP progress requires half of the time. I don't think they removed this.

Also, almost any aspect of the game already has a very low SP barrier and could theorically accessed after few weeks. What make things hard for a new comer is not the SP barrier but the knowledge barrier: the game is complicated and the learning curve is harsh.

The knowledge required to do something is always higher than the SP required.




Err If I recall correctly I choose Minmatar and the Brutor race to start off with some combat skills but I think all I got was Frigates to 3, spaceship command to 3, small projectile turrets to 3, science to 3, I think I got mining to 3, in any case it wasn't even close to a million SP's and while the tutorial is a lot better than it was, it still doesn't give you a good explanation of skills and which ones to train and why.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#149 - 2013-07-04 17:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
A lot of people have said that an SP grinding mechanic was put into the game and removed but I have never heard of anything like that. How was that implemented? And why was it so bad? No one seems to have given any specifics other than it was in the game and it was bad.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3298668#post3298668

I wrote:
- your idea can be exploited, badly. If you gain SP just for performing an activity then you will have people setting up perma-tanking, perma-shooting duels between two characters and leaving them afk for a couple hours. Come back... all that extra SP has been gained.
Fun Fact: this sort of system used to exist in EVE at the very beginning. This EXACT situation started happening. The system was removed.

tldr: the old system added training multipliers if you were training a skill that was related to the activity you were performing. In my above example, you would train any of the gunnery or tanking skills faster as you would be using them... for hours... non-stop.

Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
If the idea was changed around a bit and it was only possible to grind out SP's up until your character got to 15 million SP's (by that time I think that although you can't do everything well, you can at least do one thing really well) would that make the idea a little easier to swallow for you older vets?

... (snip)...

I think someone also suggested instantly starting out a character with 20m SP's, although i think that's too much, I would have thought somewhere between 5 and 10 million wouldn't be a bad thing as has been said many times SP's doesn't = skill and it'll allow a new player to at least get a jump start on some of the more experienced players. It'll allow them to get into the game and do whatever they want to do reasonably well without making them overpowered.


- again... there is no such thing as "catching up." You're trying to apply a concept to EVE that doesn't exist. (see: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3298582#post3298582)

- 15 million SP is nothing to sniff at. I could make a brand new character grind and be specialized in all 4 racial frigates, their weapons, and have all core skills maxed (or near maxed) with that amount of leeway. And all I would have to do is afk them in perma-tank, perma-rep setups (or viciously grind NPCs like a madman rather than PvP or having "fun").

- It won't do anything but allow newbies into ships they have no idea how to fly (or manage the cost of)... which will make them more frustrated because they have all that SP and it is "useless." The current point of the skill system is to get newbies to use cheaper equipment (so when they die they won't cry as much) and to learn how to maximize the effectiveness of said cheap equipment (which is an almost required concept later on).

- corporations/alliances will simply raise the "SP barriers" (your original argument) for applying to their corp because a newbie with 10 mil SP is still just as "useless" as a newbie with 1 mil SP.

Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Thousands of people run missions or shoot giant space rocks or sit for hours in null sec POS bashing or... Well the list goes on and all that is grinding so telling me that trying to stop newbies from wanting to grind just so they can go out and grind some more seems a bit disingenuous.

The difference between a newbie grinding for SP and someone else grinding for SOV is that the latter is there by choice. They gain no short term advantage for doing it (except maybe a fight... which they usually want in the first place)... yet they still do it because of the [possible] long term payoffs (more space to "farm" or rent out).
The newbie who grinds does so out of the mistaken impression he/she NEEDS to "catch up" (meanwhile, other parts of the game (or actually "playing" the game) will be ignored because they don't produce an "optimal" amount of SP/hr)... which I thoroughly debunked in my first post on the page before this one.

Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
I do genuinely believe that new players need some way to get into this game far faster than is currently possible and OK my idea wasn't greatly accepted by you guys but I'm not seeing many other people try to come up with a solution either.

Why should there be a solution? I fail to see a problem in the first place. The point of the skill system is that you "walk before you can run." You are not supposed to be "the hero" from day one... you're not supposed to "fly like a bawss" from the get go... you're supposed to play the game itself and hammer out whatever advantage you can with what you have at your disposal.

How did you Veterans start?
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#150 - 2013-07-04 18:59:35 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:

Err If I recall correctly I choose Minmatar and the Brutor race to start off with some combat skills but I think all I got was Frigates to 3, spaceship command to 3, small projectile turrets to 3, science to 3, I think I got mining to 3, in any case it wasn't even close to a million SP's and while the tutorial is a lot better than it was, it still doesn't give you a good explanation of skills and which ones to train and why.



Yes.

When I say "in the past" I mean at least 3-4 years ago. :)

In the character creation you also picked-up a carrier path. And got a lot of more skills and skill point to start with. Was noticed as this was silly and not really helping new players because a new player don't create a character already clearing knowing what want to do. Even I on this character has a lot of skill pretrained but never really "used" them till very late.

So they removed the system and replaced with the current one: few basic basic skills surely usefull for any starting character. However the total amount of "starting SP" given now is far lower so to comensate this they speeded up the training for the base skills.

The result is that now you need far less time for the base training than what was needed for the same training a 3-4 years old player and you can focus the training better.