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[IDEA] Give skill points as a reward for completing PvE missions/Ratting/Bounty's

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Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2013-07-03 14:05:52 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
[I do enjoy EVE, I think the game is amazing and I wouldn't be here if I didn't think that, but seriously where is the harm in making the progression system faster? Even if it only for the first few months?


https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cerebral_Accelerator


I never got one of those.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#82 - 2013-07-03 14:07:29 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Well several space sim games are currently in production that could blow the market open and if EVE is gonna survive that, then it's needs to change the experience for new users. The same old tired formula will not work forever.

I don't think anyone will disagree that CCP could be doing a better job getting new players to stick with the game. SP just isn't the right way to do it.
Coreola
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-07-03 14:15:37 UTC
I'm not completely opposed to the idea (only 95% opposed), but think it would have to have a cap on how much you could gain both in total and per [day/week/etc]. The problem, as others have stated, is that this becomes a daily/weekly/etc grind that, in my opinion, made WoW awful. I don't want to run ****** daily missions to get xxx SP, because it feels like an obligation, like you're wasting that SP if you don't do the mission each and every day.

The only thing I could really support would be relatively small SP rewards for new players completing the tutorial missions. Finish all the tutorial missions, hopefully get an idea of what aspect of the game interests you, and get a one-time 20,000 SP reward to allocate toward skills that interest.

But grinding missions for SP....no.

Jump, jump, jump.
Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2013-07-03 14:17:34 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Well several space sim games are currently in production that could blow the market open and if EVE is gonna survive that, then it's needs to change the experience for new users. The same old tired formula will not work forever.

I don't think anyone will disagree that CCP could be doing a better job getting new players to stick with the game. SP just isn't the right way to do it.


But everything they have tried all revolves around making skill training faster, from speeding up training time for the first 1.2 million SP's (woefully inadequate in my opinion) to these cerebral accelerators.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#85 - 2013-07-03 14:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:


Let's face it, most Corporations have a mandatory SP requirement to be allowed to join them (most of the time around the 15-20 million SP mark) yet you can sit in a station for a year and a half to get those skill points without ever killing anything or knowing how to play the game....


Those "SP requirements" are generally just a shorthand for what level of experience and self sufficiency they expect from you. For instance, the corp I am in, VANIS, has a 25M SP entry requirement, but if all you did was sit in a station for 3 years and applied with 75M SP, I can tell you that you wouldn't be considered for a moment, despite your being three times the SP requirement. Conversely if your app demonstrated a wealth of experience in different map zones, plus a self-reliant outlook, plus proof of good combat capability, then we'd have a lot of flex on that 25M "requirement". People with 10M SP have joined us on that basis.

In short, you're not going to be able to grind your way into the "top" corps, because grinders are the exact opposite of what they're looking for.


Skill grinding is awful. One of EVE's greatest attractions is that it frees your from the grindmill of "levelling" so that you can do what you actually want to do.

I am unalterably opposed to your idea for that reason.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#86 - 2013-07-03 14:23:12 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Well several space sim games are currently in production that could blow the market open and if EVE is gonna survive that, then it's needs to change the experience for new users. The same old tired formula will not work forever.

I don't think anyone will disagree that CCP could be doing a better job getting new players to stick with the game. SP just isn't the right way to do it.


But everything they have tried all revolves around making skill training faster, from speeding up training time for the first 1.2 million SP's (woefully inadequate in my opinion) to these cerebral accelerators.


No it hasn't. They hugely improved the tutorials, they reworked T1 frigates and cruisers, they've simplified the UI, they've made probing much more accessible.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2013-07-03 14:24:13 UTC
Coreola wrote:
I'm not completely opposed to the idea (only 95% opposed), but think it would have to have a cap on how much you could gain both in total and per [day/week/etc]. The problem, as others have stated, is that this becomes a daily/weekly/etc grind that, in my opinion, made WoW awful. I don't want to run ****** daily missions to get xxx SP, because it feels like an obligation, like you're wasting that SP if you don't do the mission each and every day.

The only thing I could really support would be relatively small SP rewards for new players completing the tutorial missions. Finish all the tutorial missions, hopefully get an idea of what aspect of the game interests you, and get a one-time 20,000 SP reward to allocate toward skills that interest.

But grinding missions for SP....no.


Yea well a daily cap would be good as well as a permanent cap at 10-15 million SP's as well so you don't **** off all the older players. But if you could get to 10-15 million SP's in maybe 4-6 months rather than the current 12-18 months wouldn't that be much more user friendly? You could also get the system to auto allocate the SP's for you based off what role you want to do (combat, mining, etc..) or at least give much better advice as to what skills new players should be going for.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#88 - 2013-07-03 14:25:31 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
But everything they have tried all revolves around making skill training faster, from speeding up training time for the first 1.2 million SP's (woefully inadequate in my opinion) to these cerebral accelerators.

They've also done some work on the new player tutorials, but I'm sure there's more they can do. Threads like this point to the problem that they're not doing very well at showing new players what they can do with their low SP while skilling up for bigger and better things. They have a fine line to walk, as they can't do too much hand-holding without breaking the sandbox, but I think more effort could be put into how exactly new players get handed off from the tutorials to the universe at large.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#89 - 2013-07-03 14:29:10 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Coreola wrote:
I'm not completely opposed to the idea (only 95% opposed), but think it would have to have a cap on how much you could gain both in total and per [day/week/etc]. The problem, as others have stated, is that this becomes a daily/weekly/etc grind that, in my opinion, made WoW awful. I don't want to run ****** daily missions to get xxx SP, because it feels like an obligation, like you're wasting that SP if you don't do the mission each and every day.

The only thing I could really support would be relatively small SP rewards for new players completing the tutorial missions. Finish all the tutorial missions, hopefully get an idea of what aspect of the game interests you, and get a one-time 20,000 SP reward to allocate toward skills that interest.

But grinding missions for SP....no.


Yea well a daily cap would be good as well as a permanent cap at 10-15 million SP's as well so you don't **** off all the older players. But if you could get to 10-15 million SP's in maybe 4-6 months rather than the current 12-18 months wouldn't that be much more user friendly? You could also get the system to auto allocate the SP's for you based off what role you want to do (combat, mining, etc..) or at least give much better advice as to what skills new players should be going for.


With a well composed skillplan and +4 implants, you can get around 24M SP per year.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
#90 - 2013-07-03 14:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
The idea is terrible. Why? Pretty much everything has already been said here.

I'll just add a point:
You compare ISK to SP, in terms of Grinding etc.
What you for forget is, that a certain amount of grind/work/effort to acquire ISK is _good_, so you actually have a tangible feeling of loss when getting scammed, blown up or whatsnot. And give the killer the satisfaction of having looted/destroyed something of value.
SP on the other hand cannot be transferred(/looted/scammed) and is seldomly lost.

Also...
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Thank you, you are the only person who has given me a good reason not to implement this idea. All I will say is this, Wow hasn't got to 10 years yet, but it has had more than 20 times the amount of players. Wanna know why? Cause it made the new user experience easy to understand and play. I don't like WoW but you can't argue that Blizzard has made the most popular MMO in history.
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/7540/Mark-Kern-Have-MMOs-Become-Too-Easy.html

Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Also think about this, Space sim games died over a decade ago, yet still there remains an enormous fan-base for them. Well several space sim games are currently in production that could blow the market open and if EVE is gonna survive that, then it's needs to change the experience for new users. The same old tired formula will not work forever.
Eve is not a space sim. Maybe a social, economic, war or industry sim. Maybe a uboot sim. But if you are looking for a space sim, you will have to wait for whatever happens with EVR ;)
Miranda Ctan
Radex Solutions
#91 - 2013-07-03 14:31:52 UTC
I'm commander shepard and this is literally the worst idea ever
Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2013-07-03 14:36:36 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
But everything they have tried all revolves around making skill training faster, from speeding up training time for the first 1.2 million SP's (woefully inadequate in my opinion) to these cerebral accelerators.

They've also done some work on the new player tutorials, but I'm sure there's more they can do. Threads like this point to the problem that they're not doing very well at showing new players what they can do with their low SP while skilling up for bigger and better things. They have a fine line to walk, as they can't do too much hand-holding without breaking the sandbox, but I think more effort could be put into how exactly new players get handed off from the tutorials to the universe at large.


The first character I had several years ago was horrible, All I wanted to do was get in the largest ship possible as quickly as possible. To that end I was able to get into all races battleships and equip them with the tech 2 guns but I couldn't hit anything as I found it ridiculously boring to level up learning and support skills. Now I have returned to the game after 2 years off and decided to be very specific about what to train. So I have trained up to Assault frigate and no further and now all I am doing is getting Core Competency up to Elite as I believe that that is the minimum standard for all ships to be flown well. After 3 months of training I am still 200 days away from completing that plan. So that's a total of about 10 months before I can really start to think about getting in any of the bigger ships (unless I want to suck at them).
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#93 - 2013-07-03 14:39:34 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Well several space sim games are currently in production that could blow the market open and if EVE is gonna survive that, then it's needs to change the experience for new users. The same old tired formula will not work forever.



Translation: eve is still dying.

News at 11.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Sedition.
#94 - 2013-07-03 14:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Balthazar Lestrane
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
But everything they have tried all revolves around making skill training faster, from speeding up training time for the first 1.2 million SP's (woefully inadequate in my opinion) to these cerebral accelerators.

They've also done some work on the new player tutorials, but I'm sure there's more they can do. Threads like this point to the problem that they're not doing very well at showing new players what they can do with their low SP while skilling up for bigger and better things. They have a fine line to walk, as they can't do too much hand-holding without breaking the sandbox, but I think more effort could be put into how exactly new players get handed off from the tutorials to the universe at large.


The first character I had several years ago was horrible, All I wanted to do was get in the largest ship possible as quickly as possible. To that end I was able to get into all races battleships and equip them with the tech 2 guns but I couldn't hit anything as I found it ridiculously boring to level up learning and support skills. Now I have returned to the game after 2 years off and decided to be very specific about what to train. So I have trained up to Assault frigate and no further and now all I am doing is getting Core Competency up to Elite as I believe that that is the minimum standard for all ships to be flown well. After 3 months of training I am still 200 days away from completing that plan. So that's a total of about 10 months before I can really start to think about getting in any of the bigger ships (unless I want to suck at them).


You need to talk to people that are experienced with this kind of thing. You don't need elite certifications to be a PvPer. Look at my KB. My core skills are half-assed if anything, most of my SP is in Spaceship Command. Certifications are just a guide for what you want to train, not what makes a good PvPer. I think a better goal would have been to reach for Core Comp. Standard and then move on to bigger ships as most T1 don't recommend anything further than that. EVE is a communal game, it's built on playing with others and when you play with others, your fleet as whole will make up for any SP you lack. It literally will take a few hours to a day tops to fit out a decent T1 tackling frigate, in which case all you need to do to PvP is find guys you enjoy flying with and hero tackle something.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#95 - 2013-07-03 14:44:44 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
The first character I had several years ago was horrible, All I wanted to do was get in the largest ship possible as quickly as possible. To that end I was able to get into all races battleships and equip them with the tech 2 guns but I couldn't hit anything as I found it ridiculously boring to level up learning and support skills. Now I have returned to the game after 2 years off and decided to be very specific about what to train. So I have trained up to Assault frigate and no further and now all I am doing is getting Core Competency up to Elite as I believe that that is the minimum standard for all ships to be flown well. After 3 months of training I am still 200 days away from completing that plan. So that's a total of about 10 months before I can really start to think about getting in any of the bigger ships (unless I want to suck at them).

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Players need to be given realistic expectations when they're starting out. Are players who haven't bothered to train support skills at all going to suck? Yes. Does that mean you need all supports at 5 to be effective? Not by a long shot. Eve is not a black-and-white game... you just need to find the right shade of gray.
Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-07-03 14:44:51 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Well several space sim games are currently in production that could blow the market open and if EVE is gonna survive that, then it's needs to change the experience for new users. The same old tired formula will not work forever.



Translation: eve is still dying.

News at 11.


Nah I don't think EVE is dying. It is a niche game that appeals to a relatively small market and CCP have done an amazing job at keeping it going for so long, but it's never going to gain the broad appeal of the other main stream MMO's and maybe that's not not a problem. But it will die if it doesn't become easier and faster for new players.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#97 - 2013-07-03 14:48:21 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
But everything they have tried all revolves around making skill training faster, from speeding up training time for the first 1.2 million SP's (woefully inadequate in my opinion) to these cerebral accelerators.

They've also done some work on the new player tutorials, but I'm sure there's more they can do. Threads like this point to the problem that they're not doing very well at showing new players what they can do with their low SP while skilling up for bigger and better things. They have a fine line to walk, as they can't do too much hand-holding without breaking the sandbox, but I think more effort could be put into how exactly new players get handed off from the tutorials to the universe at large.


The first character I had several years ago was horrible, All I wanted to do was get in the largest ship possible as quickly as possible. To that end I was able to get into all races battleships and equip them with the tech 2 guns but I couldn't hit anything as I found it ridiculously boring to level up learning and support skills. Now I have returned to the game after 2 years off and decided to be very specific about what to train. So I have trained up to Assault frigate and no further and now all I am doing is getting Core Competency up to Elite as I believe that that is the minimum standard for all ships to be flown well. After 3 months of training I am still 200 days away from completing that plan. So that's a total of about 10 months before I can really start to think about getting in any of the bigger ships (unless I want to suck at them).


You're making the same category of mistake now that you did when you first started playing.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#98 - 2013-07-03 14:49:23 UTC
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
XXSketchxx wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Well several space sim games are currently in production that could blow the market open and if EVE is gonna survive that, then it's needs to change the experience for new users. The same old tired formula will not work forever.



Translation: eve is still dying.

News at 11.


Nah I don't think EVE is dying. It is a niche game that appeals to a relatively small market and CCP have done an amazing job at keeping it going for so long, but it's never going to gain the broad appeal of the other main stream MMO's and maybe that's not not a problem. But it will die if it doesn't become easier and faster for new players.


EVE has grown every year since it launched. Why is it going to die if you don't get what you want?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-07-03 14:51:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
But everything they have tried all revolves around making skill training faster, from speeding up training time for the first 1.2 million SP's (woefully inadequate in my opinion) to these cerebral accelerators.

They've also done some work on the new player tutorials, but I'm sure there's more they can do. Threads like this point to the problem that they're not doing very well at showing new players what they can do with their low SP while skilling up for bigger and better things. They have a fine line to walk, as they can't do too much hand-holding without breaking the sandbox, but I think more effort could be put into how exactly new players get handed off from the tutorials to the universe at large.


The first character I had several years ago was horrible, All I wanted to do was get in the largest ship possible as quickly as possible. To that end I was able to get into all races battleships and equip them with the tech 2 guns but I couldn't hit anything as I found it ridiculously boring to level up learning and support skills. Now I have returned to the game after 2 years off and decided to be very specific about what to train. So I have trained up to Assault frigate and no further and now all I am doing is getting Core Competency up to Elite as I believe that that is the minimum standard for all ships to be flown well. After 3 months of training I am still 200 days away from completing that plan. So that's a total of about 10 months before I can really start to think about getting in any of the bigger ships (unless I want to suck at them).


You're making the same category of mistake now that you did when you first started playing.


So the first character I had trained no support skills, my new character is training almost nothing but support skills, how am I making the same mistake?
Chilli-Con Carnage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-07-03 14:54:33 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
XXSketchxx wrote:
Chilli-Con Carnage wrote:
Well several space sim games are currently in production that could blow the market open and if EVE is gonna survive that, then it's needs to change the experience for new users. The same old tired formula will not work forever.



Translation: eve is still dying.

News at 11.


Nah I don't think EVE is dying. It is a niche game that appeals to a relatively small market and CCP have done an amazing job at keeping it going for so long, but it's never going to gain the broad appeal of the other main stream MMO's and maybe that's not not a problem. But it will die if it doesn't become easier and faster for new players.


EVE has grown every year since it launched. Why is it going to die if you don't get what you want?


It might be growing but at it's highest point it has around half a million subs, that's not even close to other games in it's category. Anyway I'm not gonna argue for this idea anymore, I thought it would be good for all new players and not just me but clearly I am wrong.